Ed_Haynes

Which one is it? There are NUMEROUS Bahawalpur long service medals (and if McClenaghan ever gets around to revising his book, there'll be some logic emerging in the system). I have most of them, and there is no great mystery of what exists, but the "what is it" and how does the system fit together has been complex. Many of these have come out of Bahawalpur (at really HIGH prices) from unissued stocks (though some in really poor condition). Silly silly prices, around a pound on the rupee!

Which one, there are many Bahawalpur long service medals. It is very complex. I may have a few up at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2784 and more at http://sagongs.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=213 (though you'll need to sign up over there to get in).

The seriest continues with the IGS 1936 at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=8010

To continue the series: IGS 1936 Type Collection The successor to the India General Service Medal, 1908 -- see http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7991&st=0&gopid=76626&. Created to commemorate the accession of the new King-Emperor, George VI, the medal was suspended in 1940 for the duration of WWII. It was anticipated that it was start up again after the war. It was also enticipated that the British empire in India would start up again after the war. Neither happened. 1- NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1936-37 - 3030 SOWAR MAGHAR SINGH. PROBYN'S HORSE. 2- NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1937-39 - 1572 L-NK. BILBAHADUR GURUNG, 1-1 G.R. 3- NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1936-37, NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1937-39 - 8874 SEPOY MIRZA KHAN, 2-8 PUNJAB R.

Inspired by this, I have started a thread on the earlier IGS medal, the India Medal 1895. http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=8008&hl= Is there any interest in going earlier or later?

IGS 1895 Type Collection - part 4 The 1902 reshaping of the medal, with the new king-emperor's image and the date "1895" removed from the reverse. 12- WAZIRISTAN 1901-2 - 14 Risaldar Mangal Singh, 2nd Pjb. Cavy. entered service 1 Apri 1877 Jemadar 15 February 1893 Ressaldar 1 August 1893 Risaldar ???? Out by 1 January 1904 (gone w/ reorganization into the 22nd Cav.?) War services: NWF Jowaki 1877-78 - medal & bar Afghan 1879-80 - medal & bar (Ahmed Khel?) 13- WAZIRISTAN 1901-2 - bronze - Peon Ramkishan Bhat 123d Outrams Rifles

IGS 1895 Type Collection - part 3 8- PUNJAB FRONTIER 1897-98, SAMANA 1897, TIRAH 1897-98 - 1459 Piper Ghand Jhind I. S. Infy. - Piper, yes piper! 9- PUNJAB FRONTIER 1897-98, SAMANA 1897, TIRAH 1897-98 - bronze - 51 Grasscutter Kalloo 2d Regt C. I. Horse And some sample multi-claspers. 10- RELIEF OF CHITRAL 1895, PUNJAB FRONTIER 1897-98, SAMANA 1897, TIRAH 1897-98 - 3482 Sepoy Isar Singh 15th Bl. Infy. 11- PUNJAB FRONTIER 1897-98, SAMANA 1897, TIRAH 1897-98, WAZIRISTAN 1901-2 - 115 Sepoy Hakam Singh Kapurthala I. S. Infy My preference for States' Forces units may be obvious?

IGS 1895 Type Collection - part 2 The next round commences. 4- PUNJAB FRONTIER 1897-98 - 769 Sepoy Dewa Singh 1st Patiala I. S. Infy. 5- PUNJAB FRONTIER 1897-98 - bronze - Khalasia Chhedi Civil Deptt. Tochi F.F. - Khalasia = labourers (errand boys) employed by units that were not entitled to orderlies/batmen. 6- PUNJAB FRONTIER 1897-98, TIRAH 1897-98 - 135 Naick Maman Singh Nabha I S Infy 7- PUNJAB FRONTIER 1897-98, TIRAH 1897-98 - bronze - 50 Driver Jhanda Kapurthala I S Infy

We have a thread on the IGS 1908 -- http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7991 -- so why not one for its earlier sibling, the India Medal 1895. IGS 1895 Type Collection - part 1 The initial "reason" for the medal: 1- DEFENCE OF CHITRAL 1895 - 514 Sepoy Gopal Singh 4th Kashmir Rifles - KIA at Chitral Sepoy Gopal Singh was killed in action by a gunshot at Chitral, in the reconnaissance on 3 March 1895, during which Surgeon Captain H. F. Whitchurch won the Victoria Cross. The following extract is taken from Captain C. V. F. Townshend's Despatch of 26 April 1895: "Reconnaissance, 3rd March 1895. We were now fired into on all sides, front, flank and rear, from every hamlet and wall, and it was now quite dark and impossible at a short distance to distinguish friend from foe. Captain Campbell, who had been put on a pony, notwithstanding that he was severely wounded, helped me in keeping the men together. Crossing the polo-ground the enemy kept up a fire on us from the houses and the orchards. On reaching the serai I found 50 men of the 14th Sikhs under Lieutenant Hurley, who had come out to cover our retreat. I directed him to cover our retirement into the fort, and, restoring order among the 4th Kashmir Rifles, retired into the fort; the Sikhs covered the retreat very steadily. I took command now at the fort, as Campbell was severely wounded. Every man was sent to his station. I heard that Captain Baird had been desperately wounded away on our right flank, and that he and Surgeon-Captain Whitchurch had not come into the fort. He had been wounded in the early part of the action. About 8 p.m. Surgeon-Captain Whitchurch came in, bringing Captain Baird, who was mortally wounded. Thirteen of the 4th Kashmir Rifles had stuck by them, - Gurkhas and one or two Dogras, under Subadar Badri Nar Singh. They had a marvellous escape. They had to charge one or two walls or sangars where the enemy tried to stop them; several of the party were killed, Baird receiving another wound as he was being carried; they had to rush one sangar with the bayonets." The casualties in this sortie from the fort amounted to 25 killed and 30 wounded, mostly amongst the 4th Kashmir Rifles. In addition to the V.C. to Surgeon Whitchurch, the Order of Merit was awarded to 15 officers and men of the Kashmir Rifles for gallantry on that day. Ex-Richie Collection. 2- RELIEF OF CHITRAL 1895 - Driver Mangal Singh Gwalior I. S. Corps This was the unit's first service. Joined the Chitral Relief Force at Nowshera with 456 ponies and 193 carts. Employed as a cart-train between Nowshera and Dargai. On 30 April 1895, it was concentrated at Dargai for pack work to Dir. Later resumed cart-train operations near Dargai. 2 August 1895, moved forward to Swat Valley, where it remained until the end of September 1895 when it returned to Gwalior. The services of the unit received high praise. Awarded battle honours "Chitral" by GGO 397 of 17 April 1897. 3- RELIEF OF CHITRAL 1895 - bronze - Saddler Rajama Comst Transpt Deptt Madras

Well, both actually. All the ribbons were locally made (or, before 1923, made in China); and many of these ribbons were shipped back to the UK. There is a tremendous range in colours, qualities, weave. Remember, for British medals, they were remounted with some frequency and almost NEVER come to the market with original ribbons. The fixation on ribbons that our German-medal-collecting cousins have is (and was) absent here. I was able to get a couple of rolls of what is probably WWII-era ribbon for the IGS 08 off one of the old New Delhi military tailors as his son was shutting down his father's shop in the 1980s after 50 years in the trade. But other clips have come from other sources. And some of these have ugly modern ribbon. There is only one tailor in Delhi who makes the old ribbons by the old hand-weaving methods in silk to the old standards and he is in his late 80s. Trying to get him to make as much as possible before . . . . (No, he cannot do good 1914-15 Star ribbon -- he says sadly that the only weavers with that skill were Muslims and all went to Pakistan.) I could go on, and on, and on, and . . . .

Hi, Peter - He is a 1st Class Sub-Assistant Surgeon in the Indian Subordinate Medical Department. Any others? Ed

More could be added, groups, etc. But I am sure that is ENOUGH. But then there are the other IGSMs (1799, 1854, 1895, 1936, 1947) and the PGSM (1947) . . . See, I warned you, . . .

IGS 1908 Type Collection - part 8 22- George V, 2nd variety - MOHMAND 1933, NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1935 - 11094 SEP. MAGHAR SINGH, 5-12 F. F. R. 23- George V, 2nd variety - NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1935 - 4099 SEP. MOHAN SINGH, 1-16 PUNJAB R

IGS 1908 Type Collection - part 7 19- George V, 2nd variety - NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1930-31, NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1935 - 4316 SEP. MIR BAHADUR, TOCHI SCOUTS. 20- George V, 2nd variety - BURMA 1930-32 - 26826 DVR. BHAGAT SINGH, 7 MTN. BTY. 21- George V, 2nd variety - MOHMAND 1933 - 12166 SEP. SHAM SINGH, 3-11 SIKH R.

IGS 1908 Type Collection - part 6 16- George V, 1st variety - WAZIRISTAN 1921-24 - 791 SEP. DITTU RAM, 2-13 F. F. RIF. 17- George V, 2nd variety - NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1930-31 - 8105 L-NK. SULTAN SINGH, 2-7 RAJPUT R. 18- George V, 2nd variety - NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1930-31, MOHMAND 1933 - 10670 SEP. HANRCHAND SINGH, 1-11 SIKH R.

IGS 1908 Type Collection - part 5 13- George V, 1st variety - MAHSUD 1919-20, WAZIRISTAN 1919-21 - 1227 SEPOY RAGHUBAR DATT, SURVEY OF IND. DEPT. 14- George V, 1st variety - MALABAR 1921-22 - 295 NK. NAIN SING NEGI, 1-18 R. GARH RFLS. 15- George V, 1st variety - WAZIRISTAN 1919-21 - 6232 RFMN. PARMA NAND, 3 K. RFLS.

IGS 1908 Type Collection - part 4 10- George V, 1st variety - AFGHANISTAN N.W.F. 1919, MALABAR 1921-22 - 4523 RFMN. BAHADUR SING RAWAT, R. GARH RFLS. 11- George V, 1st variety - AFGHANISTAN N.W.F. 1919, WAZIRISTAN 1919-21, WAZIRISTAN 1921-24 - 2917 SEPOY UDHAM SINGH, 37/DOGRAS. 12- George V, 1st variety - AFGHANISTAN N.W.F. 1919, MAHSUD 1919-20, WAZIRISTAN 1919-21, WAZIRISTAN 1921-24 - 904 DVR. ALLAH DAD, 6 P. BTY.

IGS 1908 Type Collection - part 3 7- George V, 1st variety - ABOR 1911-12 - 1331 3rd Cl S.A.S. Gujjarmal Varma I.S.M.D. 8- George V, 1st variety - bronze - ABOR 1911-12 - 493 Cooly Agame Rai No 1 Gurkhali Carrier Corps 9- George V, 1st variety - AFGHANISTAN N.W.F. 1919 - 1348 NK ATMA SINGH, R I S LCRS (this is also seen with the naming in engraved running script)

IGS 1908 Type Collection - part 2 4- Edward VII - NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1908, ABOR 1911-12, AFGHANISTAN N.W.F. 1919 - 237 Bellow Boy Allah Ditta 7th Mule Corps 5- Edward VII - NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1908, AFGHANISTAN N.W.F. 1919, WAZIRISTAN 1921-24 - 187 Lce Naik Maula Bux 51 Camel Corps 6- Edward VII - NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1908, NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1930-31, MOHMAND 1933, NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1935 - 825 Sepoy Kaka Singh 45th Sikhs

Do you realise what you are about to unleash?? OK, part of the IGS 08 type collection: IGS 1908 Type Collection - part 1 OK, OK, all of us knew this time had to come. While this is a fairly common medal, I think it is vastly underrated and has good research potential. For the record, I am showing one of each type plus some interesting multi-clasp singles. I do not have a "Waziristan 1925", though I know there are some out there named to Indians. Watching and waiting . . . . All are, of course, the Calcutta Mint variety; not sure I have ever touched a Royal Mint striking. And, given my collecting intersts, I'm not sure I ever shall. 1- Edward VII - NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1908 - 4303 Sepoy Jiwan Singh, Q. O. C. Guides 2- Edward VII - bronze - NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1908 - 58 Grasscutter Mirza 21st Cavy 3- Edward VII - NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1908, ABOR 1911-12 - Langri Assa Singh No 1 Co 1st S. & M.

Yes, celebrate, . . .

But look at the dealers' lists. You'll see that, still, a medal to a native (of the British Isles) is priced higher than one to a native (of South Asia or other "non-White" area), while an de-named (name-erased) medal falls between these two prices. What, then, does a dealer who cares more about profits than ethics do with a medal named to an Indian? And if you were to de-name a medal and cram it into a group, trumpeting "unnamed as issued" you might really fool the rubes and make an even bigger profit. The legitimate unnamed medals (not erased) that are out and about are another issue, and they're a bit of a puzzle. Several of us have been trying to disentangle this. There is more afoot than unnamed mint escapees. And I do not even speak of the fakes ("replicas") that are being flogged about, named to order. The problem is that, in an age of laser technology, these frauds can be very good indeed. If they aren't now, they soon will be, I fear.

Happy May Day!

But the name has been erased! Do we wish to encourage this practice? Like all those name-erased Army of India Medals on the market. Almost all were once named to Indians but erased by the helpful dealers as the market price for an erased medal was higher than one to an Indian! Desecration!!

Yes, a real shame the Tunisian order has been broken off.