NavyFCO

All: I'm compiling some data for an article that I am preparing for the JOMSA that discusses researched Orders for Service to the Homeland in the Armed Forces of the USSR 3rd Class. I'm looking for assistance in finding more material that includes the following: - Award numbers and Ukaz dates for these awards - Citations for these awards You can either post the data here, or you can feel free to e-mail it to me at: dave@forvalor.com. As is proper, due credit will be given to any and all who contribute. Thanks! Dave

I think 130UKP was probably a good price for the medal alone, without the award book. I can't rattle off Oct Rev. award numbers off the top of my head, but it doesn't seem unrealistic. One thing to remember though is that England was the hotbed of put-together groups back during the "cheap" days of Soviet award collecting. Back when I could afford to buy stuff, I wouldn't touch a group that in any way came from or through hands in England. Not that you Brits are bad folks (I was big into collecting RNAS pairs and trios at the time, so I made buying trips over to England to buy for my collection anyway) but there were a few dealers in England that were churning out bad group after bad group, and literally flooding the market with bad groups at the time. That really has nothing to do with your Oct. Rev that you saw at the show, but just a bit of free advice "buyer beware". Dave

Ed: Also, for a little more context, look at the other personnel file with the group. That is to his commanding general. Quite a famous character, who fought in both the Spanish Civil War (earning a Red Banner there) and the Patriotic War. Lotsa good stuff.... Dave

It's considered a civilian award - much like the RBL and others, though it could still be awarded to the military. One of those ones that's like the Lenin... it was a "governmental" award, meaning that it could be awarded to anyone the government saw fit, be they military, civilian, foreign, etc. Dave

Doc: You're thinking like an American... We take for granted the things that we can get via the Freedom of Information Act (and the requests that can be thrown back at you citing the Privacy Act!) though this is something relatively unique to we western countries. The Brits won't let you touch WW2 records, nor will the South Africans; the Germans will charge you a fee for them... you can go down the list. The Russians will actually sell copies of the records requested, but it has to either be to a veteran, next of kin, or member of the Russian government on official business. I think I might be the only American who has been inside the Archives at Padolsk - and not even very far at that. Depending on who you work with, the archivists can be pretty decent folks (I'd say better than our people at the NPRC!) but they are restricted in who they can give the research out to. In fact, there's a big sign right inside the waiting area by the main gate that says who they can release research to and at what price. You probably wouldn't be surprised to note that "foreign collectors" aren't included on the list of authorized researchers! Although it's legal to pull the Ukazes regarding civilian awards, and then photocopy the relevant newspapers that go along with the Ukaz, it's not so simple when dealing with the Archives. In fact, for a foreigner to request the research, it's a long, convoluted process (surprised?) where you have to make the request directly through the Ministry of Defense, they have to approve the request, then approve what they give you (forget about getting "secret" market citations!) and then dealing with their costs for what they may or may not decide to give you. Rather a long, nasty process that would turn me off from collecting Soviet awards even more than the recent quadrupling of prices! Hope that spells things out! Dave

Not just the best, but the only one. Anyone else that "offers" research is simply going through him and charging an extra fee for it. ALSO, FOR ALL: since research (like taking out medals) is technically not legal, please don't post his name in public forums. I think I speak for us all when I say that I'd sure hate to lose the person that can do research because customs got wind of it... Dave

Why not? It's one of those awards where it could be given to someone who either 1) did something pretty cool or was 2) pretty well connected and thus interesting from a human perspective. I've come across some pretty cool citations and awardings for even Badges of Honor and Orders of the Red Banner of Labor. Dave

I have seen several October Revolutions included in military award cards, but I've never seen a citation for one. You might have some luck in finding a newspaper article though about the recipient if you have the Ukaz date for the award. Dave

One other thing about boxes... The medal should have corresponding wear to the box. Figure that most vets threw out their boxes after the award ceremony and wore their medals. Very (very) few kept their boxes for storing their medals in as they wore their medals fairly regularly. If you look at the box I have my Glory 3rd to the American in, it's actually a bear to get the medal in and out of the box, and I honestly doubt that the medal was ever removed from the box because of that. Same with the OGPW2 in the post - I really doubt that the vets ever took their medals out of the box. All that to say that when you see an award like the Glory 2 in the first post with a good bit of wear with an otherwise clean box, you should probably think twice about it.... Dave

They look similar, but it appears that the Mongolian case is much heavier than the thin cardboard of the Soviet box. The only reason that the box on the OGPW that I posted is still intact and not cushed (like the box for the documents) is because it has the insert inside with the order. I think the Mongolian box, given how it looks in the photo, would survive quite a bit and still not crush! I think the box posted with all the decorations from the seller in Latvia (I think it's Latvia, that is) are from one of the other eastern bloc countries... I think Yugoslavia. Dave

Dolf: Check out thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5803 Dave

There's a much greater likelihood that the Red Banner is a combat award than the OGPW1st, but you've got to go with what you like... Just my two cents... Dave

Gor: Thanks for posting the real badges! I haven't paid much attention to these in person, but I can definately see how the first one posted is probably a fake based on yours. Also, as an aside, IMHO, I have seen the seller of this badge peddle more than a few questionable items, especially cloth such as uniforms and flags, asking "retail plus" for them. As a result, I normally stay away from his stuff. (Also, I'm not fond of sellers on eBay that have more than one user ID. Not only is it against eBay policy, it's really easy for them to have others that they use to bid on their own stuff with!) Dave

Rick: As of right now, the way I see this medal is that it's pretty much worthless to the majority of Soviet collectors because of the removed screwpost. Where it's valuable is in the fact that it's a foreign award, but without the proof of that, it once again falls into the worthless category. So, were I to remove the later pin, photograph the number and then re-attach the pin, I would be able to research it and attempt to prove who it came from. The Romanian General story is nice, and is fairly valid considering the source... the seller was a Romanain who was splitting the large group of a Romanian General and had earlier sold the guy's Kutuzov 3rd with the same pin alteration to it. Unfortunately all the documents had been sold off earlier and the guy didn't remember the General's name. Luckily, it was cheap and worth the risk on it. After all, it is at least a pretty medal to display! But, if I can prove that it belonged to a Romanian general, then it will be both pretty and pretty cool at the same time! Dave

No, this isn't an unusual group, but I would guess him to be a non-combatant, perhaps some sort of logistician, though you never really know for sure. The one with the OGPW2 sounds like a classic long service group to another non-combatant. Though once again, you never know for sure. If you want one that's a possible combat citation, go for the Glory (it will be) or the late-war Red Banner. Just my two cents... Dave

Here's the reverse. Very nicely and professionally converted to a pinback! I have to take it to my jeweler to see if he can remove the pin clasp and get the number off the award to be researched. Dave

This is quite an oddity that I picked up at the SOS this past weekend. It is a Patriotic War 1st awarded to a Romanian General. On the obverse it looks... normal. On the reverse though is a different story!

One other thing to add to my above post.... there are PLENTY of empty boxes floating around out there, and then there are dubious cases like these, so chances are that 90% of the ones you get offered will probably not have their original issue box or case anyway. The only way that I'm thoroughly comfortable with boxed awards are when they have original naming on the boxes to the award recipient, or, like the ones that Rusty owns, have the original award numbers stamped on them. Dave

Don't sweat finding one. The only ones that I've seen that have nice cases thus far are ones to foreigners or some of the 1980s Friendship of Nations. Now, it's true that most Soviet awards were BOXED, but those boxes are pretty blah and were mostly discarded after the award presentation. So, unless you're going to find one of the cased awards to a foreigner or one of the FoN ones, don't hold your breath for getting one anytime soon. In 15 years of collecting Soviet awards, I've owned a total of two cased awards, and probably three with their original issue boxes. Dave

I think the seller of these awards (the Russian, not the American) bought a bunch of very dubious awards. I can tell you that several of the groups are outright bad - put together with maybe original awards. They're also priced at 25% above US retail. And, the cases are just that... cases. They aren't the right cases for foreign awards, simply ones that were found and had the medals added. Dave

That's 99% completely believeable (I think 100%) That's the problem with dropping lots of money on rare awards... the market to resell them becomes very, very thin... Dave

Or...... The consignor decided not to sell the pieces. Or perhaps Igor decided to take them down to list them up later if he has heard of a potential raise in prices. All sorts of possibilities! Chances are though that they were sold to a deep-pocketed Russian. In the cloth world, we've encountered some of these guys. The head of one of Russia's largest oil firms is a big-time uniform collector and has no problem dropping lots and lots and lots of money on what he wants. He's willing to drop more on a single uniform that he wants than I make in an entire year! Kind of tough to be in competition with people like that! Dave

The name sounds Eastern European... perhaps Bulgarian? I think that would be well worth researching - you should buy it from him! Dave

I'd love to know the serial number. I unfortunately don't have any American Navy Red Stars to bounce of off of, but I do know of one presented in a similar case to an American Army officer and I have the number off that one. Has your friend tried to research it yet? Thus far, I know that the Army awards are normally researchable (for all that I've tried) but the Navy ones come back as "dead ends". Dave

Ask and thou shalt receive... This is a photo of MG Emil Reinhardt, CG of the 69th Division, wearing is Suvorov 2nd Class. I have a few of these photos going into my article for JOMSA. I was actually just at a funeral today for a recipient of the Order of Nevsky and his family found a nice photo of him wearing it. I'm trying to get a scan of that from them. Dave