Daniel Murphy

Paul, That Bavarian one should be mine. I have the almost identical ribbon bar and a framed photo of the Bavarian NCO wearing it. The frame is Black with an Iron Cross unfortunately, which means he didn't make it. He did not have the crown though. Dan Murphy

From what I have been able to find, the city marks were made obsolete in 1884 with the adoption of the halfmoon, crown and content number. The eagle at the end of this is actually a maker mark. Here is a link to a site with German silver marks. On the left side near the bottom of the page are two marks from the firm of Bruckmann & Sohne of Heilbronn which displays an eagle in this manner. It is not the same eagle however. Dan Murphy German silver marks

Here is mine. It looks like the finisher removed the whole misformed edge on the one you display. Mine appears to have been left mostly intact. As far as the 1st class Military decoration is concerned, Andreas' site states 917 were awarded. He also breaks down the awards between 1864 and the colonial wars as 888 awarded. That leaves only 29 for WW1, truly rare indeed. Dan Murphy

I do not doubt it . Victoria's family line was Hannoverian. When there was no suitable successor to the throne in 1714, it was offered to King Georg of Hannover. He became King George I of England. This led to a dual monarchy which existed until the 1840's. I wonder that if the monarchies had not been separated, would England have gone to war with Prussia (it's old ally since 1813) in 1866? It could have changed the course of world history, but we will never know. Then we have the Mountbatten"s, the original name was German, Battenberg , they anglicized it in 1914. There are heavy amounts of German bloodlines throughout the upper crust of English society. I think everyone knows that George V, Kaiser Wilhelm II and Nicolas II were all cousins and grandchildren of Queen "Vicky". Dan Murphy

May I assume this the die flaw that was reffered to earlier. Dan Murphy

Les, Here is a montage of the detail of the crosses, I am still no good at this. I can never get them all the same size. Left is my real one, center is the other real one and right is the fake. Notice that the real ones have a ball suspender heavily soldered to the top of the cross in the center. The fake has a wide ring (not even close to the real thing) weakly soldered to the top. It looks like it would snap off under slight pressure. One other thing, look at where the crown rests on top of the cypher. See the gap between the two, it is wider on the right side on the real ones. The gap on the fake is even all the way across. Also look at the bottom of the cypher the "curls" are small on the the real ones. Of course there are spangenstuck pieces made as duplicates for the original owner to put on his medal bar and were made during WW1-30's. These have a simple wire ring as on a EK2 and are usually bronze gilt. Dan Murphy

Of course the MVK is marked. The Wagner "W" is stamped twice making it look like a VW Emblem . The silver content is stamped hanging off the edge so I am not sure if it is 835 or 938. The pic does not help much in this regard. Dan Murphy

Here is the reverse of the above picture. It would be so much nicer to have a medal bar to go with it. I am happy to just have a real MVK though. Dan Murphy

Of course this bar is for a unidentified Prussian NCO who recieved the highest Prussian award that could be awarded to an enlisted man, the Militarverdienstkreuz. Also known as the enlisted mans Pour le Merite. This and his EK2 are represented here and he would also have had the EK1 as well. It is unusual that there are no other awards, but perhaps this worn when he put on his "black and white front". Here are examples of the awards displayed with the bar. The MVK has most of it's gilt missing and an odd brown patina but it is an issue piece. The Iron Cross is a "KM". Dan Murphy

Here is the back, definitely an unusal color backer. It is actually slightly darker than in this pic. Dan Murphy

Here is a nice little two piece ribbon bar purchased at the 2004 MAX. The dealers story was that this was for a man that had been awarded the Iron Cross in 1870 and again in WW1. However I knew what it was. Sorry about the huge pic. Dan Murphy

Here is the reverse, the photo is pin down to show the simple pinback on these. Dan Murphy

Here is my SCG Kriegserinnerungszeichen. It appears to match David's in every way except the wear. The piece on the right was just used to keep it level for the photo, it is not part of the cross. Dan Murphy

The Campaign medals and crosses are mounted in a mish mash order of their being awarded. 1870, then 1864, then 1866, then 1864again. Personally, to me it is a beautiful bar mounted in 1895, so no Centenary medal. It was just mounted the way the veteran wanted it mounted, he valued some of the campaign more than the others and had them mounted that way. With the yellow backing I would say he was in a cavalry regiment with yellow facings. Because of the above I believe you are wrong. Dan Murphy

John, You just have to show us the rest, Litewka, cased badge, newspapers, all of it. I think I am not the only one who would like to see it all together. Chris, With all of the unrest in Russia during 1917-1919, the new government could probably not have guaranteed their safety in transit and may have wisely decided to wait until the situation normalized to attempt to repatriate them. The new government was responsible for them, if a number were slaughtered while they were trying to return them, it would have created a serious international incident which the Communists did not need. They had their hands full as it was. The French kept their POW's for as long as 1924 and used them for clearing the battlefields of unexploded ordnance, filling in shell holes, trenches, etc. in the so called Red Zone. These were the areas most heavily damaged. I cannot remember the title but I have a modern printing of a Bavarian soldiers diary. He was not returned until 1924 (the same year the naval bockade was lifted) and from the photo taken upon his return, looked very much like a concentration camp inmate.

Panzerman, I think this one is completely new to all of us. A new "missing link" if you will, to the various construction methods tried and eventually abandoned in the maufacture of these pieces. No one had tried to make an award like this before, it was all trial and error. It seems simple to us now, but you can bet there was a lot of frustration, beating heads against the wall, gnashing of teeth, etc. before they perfected the process. You had the King of Prussia awarding these in number to officers and men, and then he was breathing down your neck wanting to know why you were taking so long to make them. Can you imagine how long it took to make just one like this? Frame, core, 16 pieces of beading, and two rings. 20 pieces in all. I would not want to have to make it, "You want it like that? 20 pieces? I quit". Dan Murphy

As far as the U.S. Victory medal, it is possible with only the medal, to find out which division a man served in by the bars on the medal. Has any research ever been done like this for the 1870-71 bars? It would be nice to be able to say "This medal bar belonged to a man from the Xth division". Dan Murphy

John, OH......MY........God! French, RFC, RNAS, U.S. AND a Stork pin! I know this is the imperial German section, but you have got to post some pics of these pieces, maybe some group shots. There is no way you can leave me hanging like this. Dan Murphy

John, I can only say WOW! An engraved POW made field converted and an engraved pillow back. In the cases! The quartz thing is OK too. I have some medals attributed to aviators but sadly, none are engraved. Dan Murphy

Although it is partly visible on the last photo, it is marked "WS" for Wagner and Sohn of Berlin. This was the first EK 1 I ever bought, it is still one of my favorites. One thing for sure, it did not sit in a desk drawer the entire war. Minty is nice, but I love the salty ones. You know they have "seen the elephant". Aaarrgghh, attack of the green crud! I have removed it now though. Dan Murphy

Here is the back. Note same style hinge. The pin is similar but not identical, the cut outs on each side are higher creating a triangular looking top. Dan Murphy

Jens, I do not think it is "just another" EK 1. I believe mine is a almost an exact match, including the wear on the lower arm! I have a theory on this wear point, most issue wound badges are made of steel. If you look at most photos of the EK 1 and wound badge worn together, the wound badge is worn directly below the EK1. During the course of normal service during wartime, I believe the wound badge and EK would meet and rub together creating the wear on the lower front arm of the EK 1. Since the steel is harder than the silver, the silver would become worn, not the steel. Here is the obverse of mine. I keep forgetting that digital will make every speck of microscopic dust look huge. Dan Murphy

Joe, Thanks for the kind words, Tony, There may be a very good reason why these are so rare. Since the firm was in Kiel, the major portion of their sales of these crosses (with the name) would be to naval officers or petty officers of the Imperial German Navy. A great many of these crosses may have ended up at the bottom of the North and Baltic seas along with their owners due to the naval engagements in those areas. The only other formations based in Kiel were the 1st Sea Battalion and the III Battalion of Infantry Regt. 85. Even with these units at the front, persons awarded the EK 1 could have ordered one by mail or picked up one while recovering from wounds at the Ersatz unit. The other interesting question is, were they the maker of the "H" EK2's. I see dozen of collectors comparing core details ........ Dan Murphy

Gordon, I have to say that is a fantastic, rare group and as you say, the EK itself may be a first for construction technique. While the joints on the beading are very visible, I cannot see any joints on the outer corners of the frame itself. Since the beading is soldered onto both sides, I also think we have a new method of constuction here, and it would predate anything I have seen yet except the first riveted pattern. It is very possible that this piece was made in 1813. It is an amazing look at the manufacturing process of the first EK's. If you look at page 23 in "The Iron Time", it shows the different stages of construction of the 1813 EK 2. I would say yours fits in between Figure 1 and Figure 2. It looks like the outer frame was sawn from one thick sheet of silver and on the inside, cut out so the core will fit inside the opening. The beading was then cast or struck separate and soldered on to hold the core inside the outer frame. I may be wrong, but does anyone else see this possibility? Gordon, can you give us some photos of the extreme outer corners of the flat part of the frame? Do you see any joints at all on the corners? Dan Murphy

Vince, Welcome, you will not find a better group of people than on this forum. If you have questions some of them can literally work miracles. Dan Murphy