Tim B

Hi Dieter, I think grading can be very subjective depending on who is doing the actual evaluation. Like you stated, there are set grading systems like that in the coin world, but here I don't see any real standard and one world-wide accepted standard is what would be needed if a system was put into place. Even in coin collecting, there seems to be some differences of opinions when it comes to professionally graded coins (slabbed) from the different grading companies of NGC, PCGC, ICG, ANACS, etc., and over the years even the grading within those companies have changed somewhat by becoming less stringent. That's why some have taken their old graded coins out of the slabs and resubmitted them in hopes of getting higher grades today. Many are successful, some are not and some even get a lower grade! I think good, clear PIC's, along with a written description is still the best IMO, as its the buyer that has to make the final determination on what he/she thinks the item is worth and if they want to pay the asking price. For sure, the term "mint" seems to take on different meanings to many sellers these days. I'm not sure an actual grading system would work really as you would need to establish a certain set of traits for each country, medal type and era. What does the OMSA do? Tim

Hi Dieter, No, you're missing the point that Josef and myself were alluding to here. We are not talking about someone that was not entitled to an award but, rather a person that has already been awarded a medal or personal decoration and simply, for one reason or another, wanted a spare, backup copy, or custom made piece. In most countries, a person had avenues to go out and purchase jeweler's copies, have custom pieces made or engraved to commemorate a specific occasion, or simply wanted to have another copy. We see this pretty commonplace since at least WW1 and perhaps even prior in some countries. Now, a comment was previously made that Japan was not the same as many western cultures and we shouldn't assume the same but, I would like to point out that during the Meiji era, Japan did adopt a lot of western cultures in order to become more modernized and bring them out of the shogunate days. This moderization included their military and the idea of actual military style uniforms and individual awards came about from western cultures of that era, specifically from the foreign military advisors requested by Japan. So, I have to think that not only did the idea of awarding campaign/service medals and personal decorations come from western ideals, but then why not also the avenue of private purchase items? We know at some point, there were private manufacturers and unfortunately, some cases of illegally selling these to people who did not deserve whatever award/s they openly purchased prior to the government officially making it a crime. Certainly, the common soldier probably didn't care, nor could he afford such a "luxury", but I think it's totally within the realm of others higher up in rank or standing in society, just as we seen throughout Europe and the US. My thoughts anyway. With that in mind, I do see the point Josef is asking here. Why would anyone sell just a leather case and not the "set" of medal and leather case? Tim

Hi Timo, Not to direct you away from here, but if you go to the "other" forum we frequent and search "Austro-Hungarian medals", I think you'll find some information I posted there and it should answer some of your questions. Tim

Hi Timo, I pretty much agree with the medal identification and think number 2 is in fact another Signum Laudis. Probably a case where he was awarded the bronze and then silver medals. It appears both have the swords and if you look carefully you can see a partial of the swords on the second ribbon. As far as number 5 goes, I cannot tell the ribbon for sure but, the bust reminds me of a wound medal. Initially I thought the order was reversed as some of these Austrian bars had the senior ribbons on the right and were worn at an angle. However, if that were the case, I think the EK2 would have been sewn on top and the Signum Laudis on the bottom, so... I'm not sure here and will obviously be in the learning phase again. Tim

Recently added another example with the Verdun bar. Marked - Monnaie de Paris. Tim :cheers:

Again, many thanks to Komiya-san for providing this information! Hopefully, that will help some of us determine the authenticity of cased sets in the future. Tim

The amendmend that Hirohito signed into law on 18th May 1936, which finally gave each class its own rosette design.

Going back further to April 1875, these are examples of the very first rosettes. At that time there were only 3 designs that had to be shared by 8 classes. These first type rosettes were only used from 1875 till 1877.

I want to add some information on the rosettes here and must first thank another collector, Nick Komiya, for providing this information that he shared with me on another forum. With his permission to include it here... I had previously asked Nick if there were any specific references that spelled out exactly what rosettes were used and how the styles might have changed over time. This is what he came back with: Part of the documentation instituting the Order of the Chrysanthemum dated 25th Dec. 1877, Daijo-kan release no. 97. Here is the official illustration.

Hi Dieter, PM sent on this issue. Tim

Hi Rich, Just missed your post and glad you did not take any offense to my previous questions. I understand and if remember past threads correctly, Paul also had commented on that very problem of the illegal sales of ODM's. Completely forgot about that. Thank you! Tim

Hi Brian, I guess I have to ask; did you find my last comments or questions somehow derogatory to the issue? They sure were not meant that way. Tim

Hi Rich, Okay, something (another thing ) I didn't know on Japanese ODM's. So, then these marked leather cases were procurred separately just to carry the medals, if the member decided he wanted to purchase one of these privately? I guess I don't understand the "shame" part in purchasing an additional award if someone was already entitled to (wear) it. We clearly see an authorized aftermarket for replacement awards in other countries. What specifics of documentation required for purchase is beyond me and probably depended on the source of procurement but, I can understand if the Japanese goverment forbid the outside sale as a general policy. Considering that we see so many mint/near mint cased examples available on the market today and if true that unlike countries like Germany, Japan did not mass produce these ODM's in quantity but rather as needed, then I would assume most members must not have taken their awards with them once awarded? That would make these leather cases that much more scarce. Thanks again! Tim

Hi Dejan, Well, I can honestly say, that of all the items this seller had listed these two were the ones I liked the best. IMO, the medals were legit and from what I could tell on the repeat bars, they looked good. He did have one other bravery medal that had the zimbler mark on the reverse side, so... One of the issues I had however, was the ribbons, which appeared to be modern replacements for many of his items, including the Iron Merit Cross you have there. But, I am not an expert on these and have asked in another recent thread. Overall, I think you have a couple nice examples, congrats! Tim

Specifically, what I was told by another very knowledgeable Japanese collector: "That rosette was common to the 3rd and 4th class Suns as prescribed by the regulations issued in Dec 1877. It was only from 30th March 1935 that each class got its distictive rosette. Until then, the same rosette was shared between 2 classes, 1st & 2nd, 3rd & 4th, 5th & 6th , 7th & 8th." I have asked if there was a specific reference that called this out or possibly showed the different styles, so hopefully more information is forthcoming. Tim

Just an update of sorts here. I am trying to lock down some more information on these rosettes and have been told that the rosette shown above in the Meiji case is of the correct style for that period 3rd/4th Class awards. I don't have an actual reference source yet but, was told that the regulations stipulated the rosette for the 1st/2nd Class; 3rd/4th Class, 5th/6th Class, and the 7th/8th Class shared the same rosette/lapel device until a later date when each award level was given its own unique pattern rosette. Will try to find out more. Tim

Hi Brian, Looks to be a nice set here, shame on the minor enamel damage but, I think this is pretty common with those pieces that may have actually been worn. My thoughts: - Possibly a Meiji era example with the outer veins in the paulina leaves extending down as far as they do. If this is actually an accurate method of dating. - I would say that mark is indicative of a maker, but I personally have no idea of who exactly. Perhaps Paul or someone else will know. Nice to see a different mark! - As far as the true purpose of these leather cases, again, these are items I am not knowledgeable on and others seem to verify their use. I might add, this could be one of the reasons we see so many near mint examples still available today. If members used these leather cases to take on deployment, then perhaps the original awarded pieces or at least the cases, were left at home. Only speculating here, but an interesting thought, especially if one could acquire a private purchase medal and leave the actual awarded piece with the family for safe keeping. I actually see this practice still in use today and even kept my awarded pieces in their issue case and purchased extras for my medal bar when active duty. - I see a lot of these Rising Sun medals with the enamel damage on the tip of the reverse top ray. I suspect, it could have been caused by the metal support of a medal bar, as the tip of the support would be rubbing in that specific area. If so, it could indicate your medal was at one time mounted on a bar. Congrats, a nice example. Tim

Try these numbers: 190405988023 350452331291 350452343619 350406901400 350411193893 RIDICULOUS! Pure greed, nothing more.:shame:

Well Gordon, our silver eagle collecting days may be numbered... I heard one financial analyst state today, he thought silver may exceed the $100. mark this year! Tim

Looks nice Dieter! Which reverse does it have? Tim

:speechless1: For that price, I'll sell mine and even throw in free shipping! Tim

Hi Dieter! Thanks for that, as I too have seen most of these Meiji era sets with this type of rosette. I tried to ask about this very topic sometime back but, it never seems to get the right people responding. It's like its some big secret or something. Anyway, lots of areas that need to be opened and explored and hopefully Rich can shed some light in this area in days to come as his research continues! I would really like to see this 4th class set be correct and complete in the end, that would be awesome! Still, we need to get to the bottom on the different variations and if the lines in the paulina leaves are truly indicative or not. We'll get there eventually! Tim

Hi guys, I've seen this trend as well in several areas, not only Japanese or British ODM's. I think you'll find this can be seasonal as well due to people being outside more and longer in the summer months. I always have more competition when auctions end on weekends. Like you said, more time to play online as most people are off work and Sunday traditionally is more of a day off compared to Saturday. Now, don't spread the word... Tim

Hi guys, I think the medal has a good chance being Meiji, as the outer lines in the paulina leaves are extending down almost to the bottom and even with the adjacent lines. Certainly lower than what we see on the known Showa era examples. Looks nice IMO Josef! Tim

Of the two 7th Class Tashio examples I have, both appear very close to one another and the bird's head is not as tilted as they are on the Showa examples. However, I do note that one of my birds has an ever-so-slightly thinner neck than the other one. On my two Meiji 7th Class examples, they also have variations in the way the bird's head is tilted, and if you look at your two examples in post #1, they also share this difference. One is clearly looking evenly to the left, while the other appears to be slightly tilted upward towards the left. Also, though I cannot see your examples cleanly, check to see if the suspension "knob" is more elongated on the example where the bird (Kite) is looking evenly to the left. I think you'll see a noticeable difference in length. I'm talking about the point where the bird connects to the suspension ring. So, I believe what we are seeing is differences in manufacturers, but I can't prove that at this point. Unfortunately, I do not have any that are maker marked. Depending on how well I feel this week, I'll try to get some more PIC's up for you. Tim