peter monahan

I'm going to guess that 'IR 139' is "Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 139", of the 3rd Infantry Brigade, 24th Infantry Division, 1914-18, for whatever that's worth. No idea about the markings.

As you say, a nice little research project. It looks like a good long service group and can only get better with more info., though it would be a pity if it turns out there are more medals missing. Any indication of what rank he achieved or a trade specialty?

We need help here, gentlemen! It was I who suggested Abu-klea post on this site, extolling the expertise of the group, so please don't leave me hanging, with egg on my face! [i can do that quite well myself without any help. ]

'I`ve been told that these indicate commendation/citation for being "Feverishly Patriotic" ' Clearly, cooler heads did not prevail! ;)

I am absolutely not going to argue pro or con in the presence of so many experts on this order, but I was intrigued by this comment from the Spink's expert: "Chu Kang-ming, who helped appraise the medal for Spink & Son, insisted that the medal on offer was authentic and said the Ministry of Defense had not been able to produce evidence backing up its claim." What would 'proof' consist of? Digging poor Chiang up again and photographing the medals on his corpse? Somebody's diary casually mentioning 'Oh, and we buried his medals with him. The ones he wore."? An ectoplasmic communication via the Chinese version of a Ouji board? I suspect this one will go into the 'not proven' pile, as both sides of the argument have a vested interest - protecting national pride vs owning a really cool decoration. And neither side is ever likely to admit having been wrong. However, all that aside, the decorations are gorgeous and the depth of knowledge displayed by the gentlemen in this group a constant source of wonder and admiration! Peter

Pretty! Shiny! "What has it got in its pocketses, precious?" Quite a classy group to have come from our socialist brethren.

According to Wikipedia "The 11th [East Africa] Division was composed of troops from Kenya, Uganda, Nyasaland, Tanganyika and Rhodesia... fought with the Fourteenth Army in Burma during the Burma Campaign... pursued the Japanese retreating from Imphal down the Kabaw valley and established bridgeheads over the Chindwin River. In 1945, elements of the division played a part in the Battle of Meiktila and Mandalay." I wonder whether Leslie was posted to them on the [probably mistaken] basis that he would 'speak their language' or because of his familiarity with commanding African troops.

Greg Glad you're back. I'm in the '56 pushing hard for 57' doldrums myself. No whining but it ain't how I imagined it! Lots of time - retired now - but less $$ and far less energy than I'd counted on when I started assembling the bucket list! Looking forward to the next competition myself. Hope to see your name there. "Keep calm and carry on." Peter

All part of the great Victorian social experiment, which included the Salvation Army, originally meant to promote temperance in the working classes, Andrew Carnegie's free public libraries, Societies for the prevention of cruelty to children and animals, usually in that order, and prisons set up to educate and 'reform' convists, as an alternative to execution or transportation. [Aside: given the wide success of so many other Victorian notions - prohibition, 'educating the masses', the 60 hour work week child prostitution and the worst excesses of the Empire - why would anyone still subscribe to their ideas on criminal justice? Rant over!] There were a number of organizations and individuals - humane societies, the lifeboat institution and so on - devoted to rewarding and publicizing public service and bravery or devotion to duty of 'the ordinary man'. The official font of honours even got into the act with the George Cross, the 'civilian Victoria Cross'. Your medal represents one such notion. And, BTW, I am not sneering at any of those groups or persons. Well, maybe the prison reformers and their modern disciples. Some of the benefits, other than the recognition of individuals for various benificial acts, was the development of an educated, interested middle class, to which most of us here aspire to belong! Peter

Mervyn Yes, a later account I read suggested that in this case - an ambush - guns would not have helped. However, living next to the 'gun nation', I am deluged weekly by the calls to arm everybody to prevent more crime! I recently listened to a radio show on California's notorious 'three strikes' law, which sends criminals to jail for a minimum 25 years for their third felony, even if that crime is stealing a slice of pizza - one reported case - or breaking into cars. An unexpected consequence has been a rise in the number of police officers killed by criminals who figure they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by resisting arrest!

Robin Were you also able to promote yourself, say to a higher pay and pension grade? Now that would be useful! My wife recently received a service pin for 35 years with the Girl Guides here in Canada. It came in the mail! And they wonder why they have trouble keeping leaders! Peter

Paul I agree completely. During my brief stint as a militaria store clerk I often heard variations of "How can you sell these precious things?" my standard response was "Many come from the family of the recipient. Now they'll go to someone who does value them!" Peter

I have to agree with Brian. I understand the desire to have even 'sample' groups but down the road someone other than the person who made it up may well sell it, unwittingly or not, as a pukka 'group' Especially true of unnamed medals obviously. When I collected to the Indian Army, pre-'47, it was common for 'pickers' in India to buy large groups for the silver value and throw away the bronze medals. I had a group to a British officer of Indian Cavalry who was missing the VM and I succumbed to the temptation to add a place holder, then framed the group with some badges. Years later I sold it off to a dealer, having totally forgotten that it wasn't a real group. He turned it around in 48 hours but then phoned in a panic to ask me not to cash his check because the new owner was, understandably, enraged at being sold a pup. The good news was: we were able to convince the new owner it was an honest error. The bad news was: I never did get paid again by the dealer. A cautionary tale!

I read the shocking story in the news this morning. What a tragedy! And, sadly, more fuel for the argument that all PCs should be armed. Impossible to tell from the few details over here [Canada] whether it would have helped in this case, but... I have always thought it both admirable and encouraging that UK forces don't feel the need to arm all constables but the nostalgia for the 'good old [non-violent] days' may need to give way to the sad realization that we dealing with a different type of criminal these days. A thought and a prayer for the two PCs and their families. God bless them all.

Yes, please do! That would definitely count as 'a good thing that happened to me this week'!

Paul Thanks for the additional details! Orders are not my strongest suit. You're obviously thinking 'military, high rank' for the recipient. One of the world wars I'd assume - Greece is an odd one, I would have thought. I wondered about a diplomat myself. The most impressive collection of orders I've ever seen, though all lower classes, was a bag of 8 or 10 to the stationmaster at one of the London rail stations -in the late Victorian era. He had one of everything, including Turkish. Presumably every time a head of state arrived by train in London this guy got another gong. Peter

Hard to say without a photo but could be some government service or even a band or the like. A picture would help a lot!

Very classy, though the portrait of Her Majesty is not my favourite. The background looks black, but I assume that's just a function of the photo flash. Is it dull silver or something else? Peter

Badge 1 is the Turkish Order of the Medjide. Info. here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Medjidie Badge 2 is the British Order of the Bath Badge 3 is the French Legion of Honour Badge 4 is also the British Order of the Bath, a different grade "Badges 4,5,6" [i think you meant '5,6,7,]- the middle one is definitely the Greek Order of the Redeemer; bottom one may be another grade of the same order; can't see the top one well enough to ID it. Badge 8 is the Order of the Bath again If these came as a group they suggest someone who was a high ranking military figure or perhaps a diplomat; I hope this helps! Peter

922F said "instituted by King Hassan II on 18th January 1983 as a campaign medal" Which campaign(s) would that be for? Normally, of course, I know all about Morrocan awards [ ] but my brain is in at the cleaners and I can't recall who the Morrocans were fighting in the 1980s. Some Berber nationalist group or... ?

Wow! A politician and an historian. Well, "batting 5.0" is considered very very good in baseball. The badge is really lovely too. It's hard to beat good quality enamel work for sheer visual appeal. Nice find, Graf! :jumping:

Frank has it right. Fantastic! Peter

Very nice group, Paul. Any info. at all on its origins? Peter

Tony You should be able to get one warranted real by the dealer as a condition of sale, as there are enough out there. Good luck! Peter

Adrian Generally speaking, one had to be 16 to join the British Army - I don't recall when the rule requiring parental permission if under 18 came in, but not for your man's period I don't think. Earlier enlistments did occur but usually the recruiter had some reason to wink at a younger boy who claimed to be 16 - happened most often during war or when recruits were in short supply. Many young men worked for a few years and then, especially if they were not trained/apprenticed to a trade, took the queen's shilling for better prospects or adventure. A man who listed 'labourer' as his profession on discharge might well have fit that description: little education, work as a low paid labourer or no work at all might tempt a man into the army. BTW, in the early part of the century [1800-1820] 'labourer' was the catch all term for any recruit who had no occupation or listed no occupation upon enlistment. Occasionally it was changed in the records later but very likely that's what Hallam's enlistment papers said, so a logical thing to say of himself on leaving. Interesting query! Thanks for giving us a chance to show our stuff! Peter