peter monahan

Tony You should be able to get one warranted real by the dealer as a condition of sale, as there are enough out there. Good luck! Peter

Adrian Generally speaking, one had to be 16 to join the British Army - I don't recall when the rule requiring parental permission if under 18 came in, but not for your man's period I don't think. Earlier enlistments did occur but usually the recruiter had some reason to wink at a younger boy who claimed to be 16 - happened most often during war or when recruits were in short supply. Many young men worked for a few years and then, especially if they were not trained/apprenticed to a trade, took the queen's shilling for better prospects or adventure. A man who listed 'labourer' as his profession on discharge might well have fit that description: little education, work as a low paid labourer or no work at all might tempt a man into the army. BTW, in the early part of the century [1800-1820] 'labourer' was the catch all term for any recruit who had no occupation or listed no occupation upon enlistment. Occasionally it was changed in the records later but very likely that's what Hallam's enlistment papers said, so a logical thing to say of himself on leaving. Interesting query! Thanks for giving us a chance to show our stuff! Peter

Tony I've just picked up a couple of the maple leaf collar dogs - I think they were about $10.00 a piece and a general issue cap badge [no number] for twice that. Does that sound right, Mike? As Mike says, the rarer badges are copied and are a real minefield for the non-expert but the commoner ones are avaible and, speaking from a position of some ignorance, seem safe enough. The problem with the rare badges -usually but not always the higher numbers - was that late war units often recruited only a few hundred men and were almost invariably broken up as units in the UK and rolled into the older units [nos. 1-25 or so] as reinforcements. In most cases the ORs at least likely re-badged to their 'new' unit and so the badge runs on the higher numbers were very small. My tuppence worth! Peter

What's the second thing a sailor does when he gets home? Puts his suitcase down! Yes, it sounds like Canadian sailors follow the fine 'traditions' of Other Ranks thoughts and beliefs that probably first appeared outside the walls of Troy. Peter

In West Africa and, I think, in the Congo area, albinos are often murdered and they're body parts used for 'juju' by traditional shaman. A loathsome practice which still, unfortunately, is all to common among still largely superstitious populations. [NOTE: my ‘return’ key is U/S. This should be a new paragraph.] Mervyn, glad to see you point out, though perhaps not as necessary among this august group, that these are traditional costumes, used for traditional ceremonies. Can’t tell you how often we Canadians have to explain that our First Nations people don’t normally prance around in feather bonnets waving bows and arrows and scalps! Sadly, one often sees photos, especially from the 1950s-1980s of Eastern Woodlands chiefs – Cree, Ojibway, etc – wearing Plains Sioux war bonnets. Sigh!

Greg Couldn't agree more! When I taught English [20 years worth] in secondary school I always used that one, "Dulce et Decorum Est" and ' "Grass" by Carl Sandburg to put it in perspective for kids raised on 'clean deaths but never the hero' war films! Grass Pile the bodies high at Austerlitz and Waterloo. Shovel them under and let me work-- I am the grass; I cover all. And pile them high at Gettysburg And pile them high at Ypres and Verdun. Shovel them under and let me work. Two years, ten years, and the passengers ask the conductor: What place is this? Where are we now? I am the grass. Let me work. Carl Sandburg

Michael That's a very nice piece indeed! I can see collecting sweethearts would have appeal: you'll never 'get them all' so you'll never run out of stuff to buy and [maybe] they're cheaper than the badges, which go for wicked prices these days. I don't see how anyone could begin collecting is this day and age, unless he's independently wealthy! .

Your account of Pte. Tulip is exactly the sort of thing I tried to teach to the young men and women in my classes. "300,000" is just a number to most of us. Putting the results of one shell burst together with the life of one man is a far more effective description of the cost of war than any table of killed/wounded/missing can ever be!

Benny I'm sure there are shots out there if you persevere. In '14 the UK was slinging everything but the kitchen sink off their troops as the demand for equipment was so high and only as the war progressed were they able to issue uniform kit to everyone. Canada had the same issue and some of the re-cycled militia gear in early photos has to be seen to be believed! I think I must have been a cavalry trooper - or maybe his horse - in an earlier life, as I'm always fascinated by military horses and their kit. Thanks for sharing the bandolier with us! Peter

All wonderfully evocative of the realities of war. Have never understood how non-military historians & collectors can think we collectors are 'glamourizing war' when we have access to such material. I suppose a few do, especially the 'sexy elite unit' brigade, but anyone who's read these poems with an ounce of comprehension would have to be a total burk not to get the point: "War is hell." Hugh - my wife won't let me play 'The Band Played..." around the house. It makes her cry. I've felt that way myself a few time too. Thanks for sharing, all! Peter

Brian Lucky guess! Yes, it's a repro. scabbard for my Brown Bess, used on the now rare occasion when I portray an enlisted swine at an 1812 re-enactment, rather than one of the gilded lily officers. And I suppose I'll now actually have to go ahead and do the repair, since you've called me on it. It won't happen much before winter but when it does I'll try to remember to take photos. Thanks for the offer of the plastic too. I'll keep it in mind. Sincerely, Peter

Brian Yes, the scabbard in question is for a triangle bayonet to go on my Brown Bess on the rare occasions when I still portray an enlisted swine in our War of 1812 re-enactments. And now that you've offered, I will actually have to do the repairs mentioned! The leather is too rotted at the edge to re-stitch, so your method is the way to go, as pride forbids I should buy a new scabbard, even for a repro. bayonet - I am, after all, an occasional leathersmith. I'll attempt the repair but probably not before winter. When I do, I'll try to remember to post photos and, if I can't find the plastic at Micheal's [craft store] I'll scream for help. Thanks for the offer! Peter

It appears that the 90 round bandolier was intended to go round the horse's neck, so presumably worn in addition to the 50 rounds the trooper wore on his body. Seems to have been issued first for the Boer War - a campaign wherin many units were out of touch with the QM for extended period. Not sure whether it was still in use in WWI but here's the spot to get more info. on this topic and horse furniture in general: http://www.militaryh...hp?f=17&t=11273 Peter

I was going togo with Hugh's choice - "Dulce et decorum Est" - and its lovely savage cynicism, so appropriate for WWI, but then I remembered the one below. Like Noor's, a song, and one which speaks particularly to a Canadian. The YouTube site is given at the bottom. Quite by coincidence - 'Jimmy Whitefish from Kenora' - I was in Kenora for 3 days ending yesterday and saw the sad state of many of our First Nations people in the economically depressed heart of their old hunting lands. Vimy Lyrics and Music: Steve and Rob Ritchie Chorus Raise your flask, aim your rifles high I've had a dream, I've seen we three should have no fear at all You'll die in Kenora, Billy; you, Jim, in Winnipeg And I will end my days in Montreal These people come to see me in my bedroom With faces dim and names I can't recall Some woman with a golden ring she comes to comb my hair Then she dresses me and walks me down the hall Well I can still put one foot before the other, If someone points the way for me to go Today the sun is shining and a crowd has gathered 'round They put circles of red flowers on the stone Chorus Old Jim Rankin stood behind me in the tunnel Spat on his bayonet and he wiped it with his hand And he rocked from heel to heel, blew out his cheeks and whistled While we waited for the signal to advance Jimmy Rankin he was twenty and we thought him an old man He said he'd fathered children by the score By girls back in Winnipeg and girls in Calais And he bragged, by God, there'd be a hundred more Chorus And Billy Whitefish from Kenora: jet black hair and eyes like coal We all called him 'Chief' behind his back He never smiled or laughed or joked or spoke that much at all Just sat and smoked while we waited to attack Well they poured shells over our heads into the hillside In thirty yards our kit and boots were full of mud But as we made the ridge, Jimmy went down on both knees And he coughed into his sleeve and there was blood Chorus The last sound I ever heard was an explosion And bodies flew like apples thrown by boys play When I could see again, I was alone Jimmy wasn't there And a crater marked the hillside where he'd lain And Billy Whitefish from Kenora wound up in a German trench Where he captured their machine gun all alone And held them off until his ammunition was all spent And they swarmed around and they hacked him to the bone Chorus Now every day I still remember what I told them My two friends who that day from this earth were torn And the craters and the trenches where they died now bear the names Of the cities and the towns where they were born Chorus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7J3-qgLEZM

I second Ian's comments, Brian! Excellent work. An inspirattion to me - I have a broken bayonet scabbard to mend.

Very interesting development! Can't wait to see how they handle awarding it. I must say, alluding to the original topic, if I had the 300GBP for a Hancock copy I'd probably buy one!

Not sure about the Victorians but certainly in the Georgian period it was common to give 'presentation swords' to deserving officers, either by public subscription after somebody's name made the London Gazette or by smaller private groups. Nelson must have had dozens of them! So it's quite possible, IMHO, that even these lovely pieces of ironware were the 'second best' swords to their owners and not worth the bother of having engraved, unlike perhaps the ones they ordered themselves. Also, were I the lucky owner of great granddad's multiple uniforms, accessories and swords, I'd be flogging off the unnamed ones when temporarily financially embarrassed! I have always loved the look of these swords! I still vividlyrecall, 30 years later, my first visit to an upscale militaria shop in Piccadilly Arcade, London. Green as grass, a colonial tourist and probably obviously so, I was treated with perfect courtesy by the clerk, who obligingly trotted vast trays of India general Service Medals medals which he must have known I had no hope of purchasing! But what got me into the store was a 'Mameluke hilted General officer's Sword' in the window which he told me nonchalantly had belonged to General Sir Sam Browne VC GCB LCSI of the 2nd Punjab Irregular Cavalry [sam Browne's Cavalry]. Him of the amputated left arm and the 'Sam Browne belt' and the only item of militaria I would still unhesitatingly grab up with my hypothetical lottery winnings were I ever in a position to do so!

Welcome back anyway! Always good to have another [somewhat aged?] 'voice of reason' to temper the wild enthusiasm of our younger members. :cheeky:

I agree, Mervyn. Fair price for a lovely item and almost certainly a good investment as well. Can't see the price dropping nor great numbers of fakes appearing - just too bl****y complex to remake. I'm envious, Kev!

What a shame! Hope you have good luck in recovering them.

Mike Found this on Amazon:Accles Machine Gun, Carriages and Mounts (1892) [Paperback] J. Accles (Author) Is that the same brochure you mention? 1 review listed on the Amazon site which says this: "Although the Accles was not issued officially, records show that it was used on some occasions by independent business companies against pirates in the Far East", for what its worth. Also, http://acclesandshelvoke.co.uk/history.htm covers the history of Mr. Accles with the Colt company - built factories in China for wxample. Hope it helps a bit. Peter

Monkey Just read this thread - a day late and a shilling short, as usual - but I did get the joke! "EU" and "logic" in the same sentence. Same same like "military intelligence". Over here in snowy Canada -temperature outside my window a frigid 32 degrees Celsius as I type this - we began issuing numbers, not even bars, for some of the UN missions our guys were on. Cyprus, for example, had Canadians doing signals/communications for many many years so if you served in our Signal Corps or had that speciality in another unit and were willing to go, you could go a whole bunch of times. The numerals '5', '6', '8' exist and have been issued and one hears rumours of '10' and even '15'! Nice cheap way to reward our boys for sticking their necks out! Peter

Mervyn They are still not hard to find over here but, like most of this sort of thing, the lists one assumes were kept, linkung serial numbers and names, don't seem to be available, so most of them show up as 'orphans' though in their time they would have been treasured by the wearers and honoured by others, who knew their significance.

Vernon Your friend, if interested in selling, would be well adviced to get expert advice. Some of the more reputable auction houses might venture an appraisal and, if the thing is authentic, would very likely be interested in selling it for him, for the reason Paul mentioned. Sadly, he was equally right in his comments on fraud. Good luck to him and you! Peter

I well remember when I got rid of my rifles - many many years ago now - I was young, the gun laws in Canada had changed and I thought I needed a bit of cash more than a collection of ex-Enfield long arms. A Mk. 4 Martini-Henry and an SMLE were my favourites, both evocative of vast areas of British/Commonwealth/Imperial history. I also recall what George Macdonald Fraser asked rhetorically in one of the McAuslan stories, something to the effect of "What will the wild men of the world do when the last Lee Enfield is gone?" Such a shame that so many were butchered over here in North America; stocks cut down and sold as hunting rifles. Such a shameful way to treat a noble tool! One of the iconic weapons of this century, AK 47s be d***ed! Peter