RobW

Hello JM, I am not sure what you mean by 'bogus' UK vic but I would suggest it is harder to fake or create a fantasy group as Great Britain vics, and Commonwealth medals are generally issued named. Hence it would be relatively easy to check the recipients medal entitlement. If another medal, named to a different person showed up in a group it would be discounted and suspect. There are of course exceptions with official re-naming due to original naming errors but something as obvious as another persons details would be immediately noticed. There is a practice where medals are 'name erased'. In these cases the details of the original recipient are removed by filing leaving a 'clean medal'. It is again relatively easy to spot these re-named items as the edge has a curved appearance and not flat and the medal circumference is a bit narrower where the filing has been done. In some cases these name erased items are used to complete a group where the originals have been split, and an unnamed original is not available, but it has also been seen where certain vendors have been known to insert other renamed or unnamed originals into a group to increase the price etc... Unnamed as issued Great Britain vics are in the market although they are not that common. Unnamed examples of the South African victory are also infrequently seen as it was produced in London and then shipped to South Africa unnamed for later naming and awarding. As far as the ribbon is concerned there is a particular style and shade of Great Britain vic ribbon. It is wider at 38 mm and has a thin white edging. Examples of this ribbon has been posted previously on this thread in Great Britain groups (post #161) as well as the corresponding ribbon bar (post # 174). Once the medals are mounted, either swing mounted (posts #85 & #161), or court mounted (post #107) the ribbon is fixed and can't be tampered with without evidence of it having being changed. I hope this has helped in some way to answer the question. Regards, Rob

Here is the box. Art Metal Works, Inc. It has the clasp names on the exterior in purple ink and the contract date in March 1920. Note that even though the box states 'Unassembled with pin' the medal did in fact come with all clasps and brooch attached correctly. Regards, Rob

To one and all, Last post for a bit as other commitments press. Still on the subject of boxes here is a U.S. vic with 4 clasps (4th Div), with its corresponding box. Box picture to follow. Regards, Rob

Hello JM, The perennial problem of any vic collector, especially for those nations that do not by routine issue their medals named, is attempting to conduct research on the individuals awarded the items. While U.S. service medals (in this case the vic) were generally issued unnamed there are numerous examples where the recipient has had the medal privately engraved. I have seen examples named to both Navy as well as an Army member. Some have been seen named in block capitals or script on the rim, while other examples have been seen with the engraving on the reverse. Despite the specific combination of clasps, in this case with the medal unnamed it would be difficult to actually pin it to a specific recipient unless it also came with any associated award paperwork, service records, and maybe a State award. Unless there is specific information to indicate provenance, including the award of the Silver Citation Star, it will be quite difficult to accurately determine the recipient. I think anything else would be a bit speculative or supposition. Regards, Rob

Tim, Totally agree and couldn't have said it better myself. Regards, Rob

Tim, Agree that medals that were issued as part of late claims, replacements etc... would be more likely to have a combination of original backstrap type and push-pin clasps as per your example. I also have a U.S. re-issue type 3 vic, with the tab suspender, produced in an early 1980s contract that also has 4 re-issue clasps; 2 of the darker bronze variety and the alternating 2 in a more shiny bronze variety. If I can find it in a reasonably short time I will dig it out and post a pic. I hope this helps. Regards, Rob

Tim, The Army QM Department ordered a sufficient quantity of clasps based on the expected number of claims for such clasps which, in itself, was based on the expected qualifying soldiers at the various engagements. Some information has indicated that these quantities were over estimated at the time which resulted in large stock holdings. Another re-assessment was conducted in 1949 to cover the expected ratio of replacements, re-issues, lost medals etc over the coming decades and the remainder of the clasps deemed surplus were remelted. It was only when these final original stocks, with slide on backstraps, were exhausted that the Army QM Department started using the re-issue clasps with push through pins. As far as I have been able to determine this re-issuing of medals with individual push-pin clasps started to occur in the early 1980s. These re-issues have been seen in both engagment and service (country) clasps and have also had a dark bronze finish (in your example) as well as a shiny bronze finish with the tops of the letters slightly burnished as a contrast. Regards, Rob

Hello Tim & JM, This is off the top of the head as I don't have any of my references nearby. There was only a limited number of engagement clasps originally authorised and this list was expanded in due course with the end result being 13 actual battle or engagement clasps. The 'Defensive Sector' clasp was authorised, in part to recognise those that hadn't actually participated in an authorised engagement yet were deemed worthy of recognition for their defensive (holding the line) efforts, to negate the necessity of authorising the 'First Army' and 'Second Army' clasps which was also mooted at the time, as well as service in Russia / Siberia etc... All of this initial qualifying work was occurring before the contracts were let for the production of the Army medals. As can be seen from the contract date on the boxes the actual manufacturing contract did not occur until March of 1920. Additionally all authorised engagement clasps combinations and the final list of qualifying units, regiments, etc was still being finalised as the Army Orders pertaining to those qualifying units was not completed until much after this first initial contract run. Having said all of that it is therefore not unusual to see boxes with the words 'Unassembled with pin' on them as they also have the contract date of March 1920. I have seen quite a few examples of this and the box actaully contains the medal, fully assembled with appropriate clasps and brooch. In fact if you look closely at all the boxes from the 3 major manufacturers you will also observe that they all have the same contract number and date. Regards, Rob

Tim & JM, This particular ebay vendor has been selling vic items that would best be described as of a 'dubious' nature. Beware. Regards, Rob

And here are the close-ups. The 'LA' mark on the obverse, in between the head and the hand, is a bit difficult to see but the one on the reverse, just after 1919 is readily noticeable. Note the darker bronze finish. I hope this helps. Regards, Rob

Hello JM, It is not untoward or unusual to see the Czech and Japan vics turning up on ebay. A close look at the sellers location indicates, in some cases, either the Czech Republic or Japan so there shouldn't be any trouble there. Having said that there are also vendors in the U.S. and Europe selling reproductions and other copies of a more dubious nature so you do have to beware. The real trick with the Japan vic is to try and find them with their box in good condition, and then there is the issue of the corresponding award certificate. As for the Czech type 1 vics you are right in stating that there never seems to be any on ebay. The reason they are rarely seen is because they are scarce. They are a particularly hard item to obtain and even the collectors I know in Prague, Czech Republic have indicated they are not seen on market very often. One collector in Prague stated he hadn't seen one for a couple of years. I would be patient as they still turn up from time to time. The Czech type 1's have been seen in both a shiny and matte bronze finish, as well as a much darker bronze. They are generally seen on a cylinder suspender. I have posted pics of one of mine, with a shiny bronze finish, previously on the Czechoslovakia WW1 Victory Medal thread, which is the 'Central & Eastern European States: Non Communist Era' topic. Regards, Rob

Hello JM, Happy to be of help if it is of use. Your story of the buttons is a good one as the corollary of it also has implications in the vic series. There are many people in the various collecting fields that are happy to watch and learn but not contribute and there are also many times when cheap items are sold as something 'rare' and the word doesn't get out. In a lot of cases the collectors that are caught by these 'rare' items are those new to the field or those that don't possess any number of the standard references for their field. As far as the vic series goes, and in addition to Mr Laslo's 2nd Edition book, if you don't already have them I would recommend attempting to locate a copy of the following references: * 'The Gleim Medal Letters 1971-1997' published by the OMSA, OMSA Medal Notes No.5, 1998 * A number of vic related journal articles from 'The Medal Collector' (OMSA Journal) produced in the early to mid 90's. * 'Battlefield Credits and Campaign Awards' by Planchet Press (No 21B). The book lists the entitlement of units to battle streamers for their colours but it also has relevance because of the corresponding entitlement of battle streamers to victory medal clasps of units in the A.E.F. These references would expand your information base on top of what is contained in places like this and other forums. Your point about proper and full exchange of information is a good one however I do think that the vic collecting field still has collectors that have the information but are reticent to share. Hopefully that will change. This forum is a good place for those of us who think the information should get out so I would encourage all to keep posting. You are indeed adding to it as it does generate discussion. Regards, Rob

JM, This clasps looks similar to that which is in Mr Laslo's book describing an 'ARMY OF OCCUPATION' clasp produced by the U.S. firm of Bailey, Banks & Biddle (BBB), which appeared in a 1939 catalogue. It uses the same typeface and has the same filled in edge loops and smaller stars. I have not, however, been able to confirm this yet. Regards, Rob

To all, Same manufacturer; same design, thin backstrap, different clasp. Regards, Rob

Hello JM, There is nothing unusual in the slight variations in these clasps. The U.S. Mint provided the 3 firms (Art Metal Works, S.G. Adams, & Jos Mayer) contracted to produce the vic's as well as the clasps with the hubs from which their own working dies would have been produced. It is likely that the slight variations occurred in these working dies but as they were all based on the same design hubs there shouldn't be large differences. Another variety of the official SOMME OFFENSIVE clasp has been noted that has neither the comma nor a period; just a space. Of course this doesn't take into account those Army clasps actually produced by the U.S. Mint which have so far eluded exact identification. These official clasps have also been seen with, and without, spacers. Regards, Rob

Hello JM, As far as the clasps are concerned on the repro I posted I should clarify that the CHAMPAGNE-MARNE clasp looks like it did have spacers and they appeared to have been broken off. That would solve the issue of different clasps with or without spacers. I have seen the entire set of official clasps reproduced in this style indicating the same manufacturer, even down to the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp having no spacers. I hope this clears things up. Regards, Rob

Hello JM, For comparison here is a French repro vic with some confirmed French produced clasps. This particular French repro has no edge markings on the rim of the medal. Note that it is suspended by a French made ribbon and not the usual U.S. ribbon. The differences are apparent when you place them side by side. Although it is hidden the medal suspender is produced by the 'N.S. Meyer Inc' firm and is marked as such. It has a combination of both reproductions of official clasps as well as an unofficial clasp. On the back of each clasp (not the backstrap), in small impressed capitals, is 'MADE IN FRANCE' making these of later in the 1930s vintage. As can be seen the backstraps are of a uniform narrow width. I hope this is of use. Due to impending work commitments I'll shortly be having a longer break. Let's see if others join the party. Regards, Rob

To all, To continue the Australian bit here are some WO1 DPCU rank slides. I have included two as the background on one of them makes it difficult to see the detail. I suppose that is why they are worn on the combat uniform. More to follow of service dress, and general duty dress when I have time to find them. Regards, Rob

JM, I am aware of at least 4 different French manufacturers of reproduction official U.S. vic clasps as well as some unofficial clasps. All have smaller stars and backstraps of varying but generally thinner width. When I have the time I will dig some out and post pics. As for the clasps with the larger stars; the only comment I have is that there is still some contention that they are indeed French made. All the collectors in France that I have spoken to, and in posts on a number of French forums, feel that they are of contemporary U.S. production from the 1980s. These clasps are regularly seen on U.S. vics with the modern nylon ribbon. If you could post pics of the reverse backstrap that would help. It does bring to the forefront the issue that there is very little information out there on who produced the various different sets of engagement and country clasps for the U.S. vic. Time will tell with more information always coming to light. Happy to hear from other U.S. vic collectors who have an opinion!! Regards, Rob

Hello JM, Thanks for the post. It is nice to see that there are other vic collectors out there. I have a few of the French produced U.S. vic reproductions and they have a variety of markings including: * no edge markings. * triangle hallmark and 'BRONZE' on the edge. * square hallmark and 'BRONZE' on the edge. * 'MADE IN FRANCE', large capitals, on the edge. * 'MADE IN FRANCE', in very small capitals on the edge. The medals with the first three markings were generally produced during the 1920s whereas those with the later 'MADE IN FRANCE' markings were known to have been produced in the 1930s to comply with the U.S. Tariff Law of 1931, in which the products had to have a marking displaying the country of origin. This is also dates the 'Made In Italy' repro to the same period. Regards, Rob

So many people watching; so few people posting... To all, Here is are some pics of the not so regularly seen U.S. vic repro type 2 according to Mr Laslo's reference. It is the repro that has 'Made In Italy' on the rim. There are very noticeable die variations on both the obverse and reverse compared to the official strikes as well as the French repro's, which are in themselves, also not seen that often. Regards, Rob

To all, Seems things are a bit quiet around here at the moment. Here is another 'swing-mounted' Great Britain mini group. This time it is without the miniature M.I.D on the vic and has a 1914-15 Star instead of the previously shown 1914 Star & bar. It is a nice small group showing previous service in the Boer War of 1899-1902 indicated by the Queens South Africa medal with 3 clasps. The vic mini also has a very good level of detail. Regards, Rob

To all, To close the loop from the earlier Czech reissue type's here is a reissue type 1. It has a cylinder suspension with a number of minor obverse and reverse die variations compared to the official strikes and the later reissues. Regards, Rob

Hello Kevin, Thanks for the post. That it is a nice Portuguese mini trio. I had previously seen a single Portugal vic mini but it was in very poor shape and without the ribbon. There appears to be a flatter spot on the suspension ring of the Medal For Exemplary Conduct (white ribbon, green stripes). Could you ascertain if there was a hallmark present or was it just a flat spot or worn area? I have a Belgian vic mini in silver as well as a full size silver-gilt Belgian vic with a large rectangular hallmark on the suspension ring. Portugal did indeed use silver hallmarks between 1886-1938 but then again it may just be a flat spot on the suspension ring. Vic mini's are another whole area you can focus on and it certainly rounds out a good vic collection with both single items and small groups still reasonably obtainable. Regards, Rob

JM and others, For a direct comparison here is the corresponding re-issue type 2 with a gold-gilt finish. While the difference may not be readily apparent from the pic, it is definitely noticeable when you have the two pieces side by side. Note the strength of the green colour in the ribbon of the gilt re-issue type 2 compared to the slightly faded colours of the matte finish re-issue counterpart. Regards, Rob