Odin Mk 3

My wife has just returned from a group meeting she goes to. Their speaker this afternoon was a Yeoman of the Guard, ie a member of the Queen's Body Guard. He had his tunic and medals there (but is not allowed to actually wear his uniform unless he is on duty). My wife took some photos and it showed that he had the QGJM (plus GMS Northern Ireland, ACSM and Army LS&GC). He told the meeting he has already received his Diamond Jubilee Medal - on 6th February - but is not permitted to actually wear it until June. Unfortunately he didn't bring that medal with him otherwise I would be posting a photo of it here.

We have now reached the point at which the minatures of the new jubilee medal can now be worn. I was given this group to 'update' with the latest minature and hopefully will have the full size medals to re-mount shortly. Interesting group and yes the Bronze Star is in the London Gazette.

I would like to add my condolences for your sad loss. I can echo what everyone has said about not going to the Doctor; here I speak from experience. Just over five years ago I had been working for a short while in Egypt. I was fine while I was there (both my colleagues had not been quite so lucky) but on returning home I had a bit of jippy tummy - probably just re-adjusting to different water supply or whatever. Frequent trips to the heads (bathroom) for a few days but nothing too serious. However I noticed I was passing some fresh blood and having previously had a minor problem with piles I was tempted to ignore it. Fortunately I didn't and went to see my doctor. She thought it wasn't piles and referred me to the hospital for a colonoscopy. They found a small poluyp and took a sample. Initial tests showed it was benign but they repeated the colonoscopy and removed as much as they could. Repeat tests showed it wasn't benign and as a result I was told I had bowel cancer (on the day I had just been to the funeral of a friend who had died of bowel cancer - he had left it too late to get treatment). I had to have a bowel resection and the histology showed it was just started to invade the lymph system; six months of chemotheraphy followed. However five years later I'm still here and with regular tests each year, hopefully clear of the big C. I had asked the surgeon at one point if my earlier piles had actually been this same problem. His reply was quite clear - no you would have been dead by now! Hopefully me sharing this experience with you (the worst year of my life) will help others make the right decision. Look after yourselves and don't ignore any changes, however trivial, go to the doctor. Sorry again Brian for your loss.

The explanation is that if you look very carefully at the 1897 case, you will find it was a PS Henry Rouse in R Div (Greenwich). This is a different Henry Rouse, Warrant Number 65714, who was a Station PS with the number 64R, as per that case. This man retired in 1907 as an Inspector in Y Div (Highgate). So not the same man I'm afraid. Excellent source of information those Old Bailey cases as they can give you an insight into some of the cases officers were involved with. HENRY ROUSE (Sergeant R 64). I was at the station as acting inspector—I received this coin from the last witness, I marked it—this is it—I charged the prisoner with this—he said, "It is a false accusation—a week afterwards he was charged with the other case—he made no reply to that. If you can get more information on PC Henry Rouse I would be very interested and especially to see a copy of the photo if that is possible.

Here is what I have found: 11/05/1889 Warrant No. 67055 PC Henry Rouse Div No 63L left with a gratuity (joined Met - L Div 1882) 08/08/1889 Warrant No. 73724 PC William Davidson Div No 63L was dismissed (joined Met 1888) 21/10/1890 Warrant No. 74744 PC James Kittering Div No 63L left L Div for R Div (joined Met 1889) 15/12/1890 Warrant No 76430 PC Elijah Thurman Div No 63L joined Met 09/04/1904 Warrant No 76430 PC Elijah Thurman Div No 63L left L Div for H Div 11/04/1904 Warrant No 90636 PC Benjamin Milligan Div No 63L joined Met 17/02/1912 Warrant No 90936 PC Benjamin Milligan Div No 63L left L Div on promotion to PS R Div 09/11/1912 Warrant No 748847 PC Albert Hitchman Div No 63L Died (joined Met 1889) It can't be either Davidson or Kittering as neither would have had the 1887 Jubilee Medal whilst serving as 63L. Likewise Milligan joined too late to have either the 1887 or 1897 Jubilee Medal. Hitchman would have had the 1897 Medal but by the time he was 63L he would have had the 1902 and 1911 Medals. That leaves Thurman or Rouse. Thurman would have earned the 1897 Medal as 63L but he also added the 1902 medal whilst in that Division - so unless it was taken before 1902 I would discount him and think Rouse is a more likely candidate - possibly a photo taken of him just after he received the 1887 Medal and left the Met in 1889. The age of the man might also help - I can tell you that Thurman was 20 (a framework maker) when he joined in 1890 so he should look around 30 if it is him in the photo. Unfortunately I don't have any details for Rouse.

I have identified a number of possible officers with that number. I will produce you a table of everyone I can find who held that number between about 1889 and 1912 but it will take me some time to compile and I'm rather busy with something else at present. Will flesh out what I have found and post the information tomorrow.

The basis of awarding the jubilee medals has changed completely in the UK since the Queen's silver jubilee. In 1977 the medal was awarded to both cilivians and service personnel. For example people like town mayors were awarded the 1977 Jubilee Medal. However in 2002 the medal was awarded only to service personnel (full and part time) and members of the emergency services etc (police, ambulance, fire & rescue, coastguard, prison officers), the qualification being that they had at least five years service at a specific date in 2002. An almost identical approach is being taken for 2012. So it is highly unlikely that retired service / police personnel will be awarded the medal. The only exceptions seem to be holders of the VC or GC will received the Diamond Jubilee Medal as will members of the Royal Household. The question of a bar is interesting - I think the ring suspender on the 2002 medal make that a less attractive option, remembering also the 1897 bar for the jubilee medal (police issue) was actually attached to the medal via the ribbon pin on the suspender.

Sorry I forgot to add that PC Claydon didn't rejoin for the 1911 Coronation

The photo is of an unknown officer who appears to be proudly displaying a Queen Victoria Jubilee medal with bar and a 1902 Coronation medal. At first I though that he may be a Met officer, but the Divisional letter appears to be 'O' with a number of 132. Getting back to the original question: The 'mthyical' O Div was used in 1911 for the pensioners who rejoined for the Coronation of King George V. I use that term because it wasn't a physical Divison as such but just an allocation for rejoiners. Most were in fact posted back to their original divisions. The warrant numbers they were allocated seem to continue (roughly) from those used for the pensioners who rejoined in 1902 for Edward VII's Coronation. So by 1911 they were in fact already past the 2000 mark. So could it be that it is a 0 rather than a O? I have checked the numbers for 1902 and the number 132 was allocated to a PC William Claydon who rejoined as a pensioner on 10/6/1902 - and served with R Div (Greenwich). However he must have been stood down (because the Coronation was delayed due to the King having appendicitis) as he rejoined yet again on 07/08/1902 with the number 2433 and swerved with R Div. Whether he had already changed his collar to 0132 and didn't bother to change it again because the event was imminent I don't know. However the photo must have ben taken some time afterwards as he wouldn't have got his second medal until at least the end of 1902 If he is definitely a Met officer then that is the only explanantion I can offer. It would be nice to see a bit clearer scan of the photo.

I must admit I've never come across a bronze version of this medal - very unusual. You mentioned getting hold of some new ribbon - that is fairly easy in the UK so if you can't hold hold of a piece then send me a message with your address and I'll send you a piece as I have some here.

Sounds interesting - so hopefully he can come up with some more information on Burrows and his wife

Hello Anna I've just been through my limited notes I have on this medal and can tell you the following medals have all been noted by collectors over the last 20 years or so: Royal Parks London - Sergeants, Gate Keepers and Park Keepers J Ainsworth | H Barnwell | A Bolton | J Burrows | A Cumner | G Earwaker | A Jenkins | J Kirby | J T Linksey C Miller | G Orchard | C Phillips | M H Stroud | E P Symons | M Travers | C Waterman | J Wright | G Yeomans Royal Parks London – Supernumerary Park Keepers R Bond | W Cameron | A Miller | P Pinder Holyrood Parks – Park Keepers J Burnside | T Duncan | J Gunn | J King Burrows medal was on the list of a dealer called March in mid 1996. So there are a few of them about out there (not that I have one though)

I don't have the full Police Orders entry for Minns - all I have is shown below: 02/04/1942 99239 Minns PC 198W to N 07/05/1943 99239 Minns PC 198N Resigned If he re-joined at the start of WWII then he would have clocked up the three years necessary for the Defence Medal. When he joined the Attestation Register shows his name as George Richard Minns (see below) I didn't pick up his WWI service as his date of leaving for the army didn't show up when I checked through the Police Orders.

Sorry forgot to add - the majority of Chief Constables in the Met were recruited directly into the force from the services although a few came from the well educated upper classes. Many had no previous involvement with civilain policing and therefore had not served with other Police forces. The service ranks of some Chief Constables were not that high, in 1915 all four district Chief Constables were Majors (Parsons, Douglas, Lafone and Tomlin - the later appears in the photo). This almost implies that a Superintendent was seen as ranking below a middle rank army officer.

I got a copy of the photograph from a Met Officer who was serving in Scotland Yard so I supsect the museum already has a copy. I do have it as one file but it is pretty large (over 1.5MB) so some fairly drastic surgery was needed to get it down into 140K chunks. There was a key to identify the names of the officers but I then went through the Police Orders to identify where each Supt was serving. At that time the Met Police were getting ready to give up policing the Dockyards. As a cost savings measure the role was passed to a new force - The Royal Marine Police (which later became part of the Admiralty Constabulary). This new force was staffed by ex- Royal Marines who were in receipt of an RM pension (and so they were able to get away with paying them less salary than Met Officers). The Supts of 2nd Div (Portsmouth) and 3rd Div (Devonport) are in the photo. There is no Supt shown for 1st Div unless perhaps Richie was in this role (I couldn't find him in the Police Orders). The last Supt for 4th Div (Chatham) was Supt C Sly - he retired 1/05/1929 and is not in the photo (not sure of the date it was taken in 1929). Supt Sly was replaced by a Ch Insp (J Kane). Ch Insp Cane oversaw the closure of Met policing at Chatham on 31st Jan 1932 with the majority of officers returning to London - Kane went to Devonport - probably to help close that force down. The Chief Constables were in charge of Districts. In 1910 there were 5 Chief Constables in the Met Northern - Divisions D E S X and Y Eastern - Divisions G H J K N and Thames Southern - Divisions L M P E V and W Western - Divisions A B C F and T Criminal Investigation Dept The Chief Constables were later replaced by the Deputy Assistant Commissioner Rank. Other ranks were also introduced above the Supt rank, these are still in use today despite efforts to simplify the rank structure - the Commander rank and Ch Supt rank. In 1929 the Commissioner had a number of Assistant Commissioners with one nominated as his Deputy (at this time it was R Adm Royds - who had been a polar explorer in an earlier life). There was no Deputy Commissioner rank as such. In the modern Met Police the police areas have been rationalised to align with the London Boroughs. Many divisions are headed up by a Chief Supt as the Borough Commander but some of the larger ones (eg City of Westminster) are headed up by a Commander. The Special Constabulary force in the Met would have been quite large and Sir Walter Allen, as its head, held quite a senior position. He took on that role in 1925 and served through until 1943. So he was probably seen as important enough to feature in the photo (and his unknown colleague). The one man who doesn't really fit is the Bandmaster - I have no information on him.

Last part: Supt Ernest Brind had just been promoted to Supt (end April 1929) and his posting to L Div was his first job at that grade. As mentioned before Divisions were headed up by a Supt including the river section (Thames = TA). 5th Div (Pembroke Dockyard) was originally headed by a Supt but due to the small size of the division, the post was downgraded to that of a Chief Inspector. The Dockyard had been closed by the time this photo was taken.

Laurie was an Assistant Commissioner and Morgan and Whitehead were Chief Constables. Morgan was another police officer who had risen through the ranks.

All the Supts in the back row were part of CO Division (Scotland Yard). Rear Admiral Royds was the Deputy to the Commissioner (Viscount Byng). Sir Walter Allen was Chief Commandant of the Met Police Special Constabulary. Possibly the unindentified officer behind his right hand shoulder is perhaps his Deputy.

Here is the next section: Both Landon and Wensley were Chief Constables who had risen through the ranks. Tomlin was an Assistant Commisioner. Supt Abbott shown in the photo was on the point of retiring - his replacement in L Div is also shown in another section. I am particularly interested in Supt James Lauder as I have his two medals in my collection (1902 and 1911 Police Coronation Medals).

Following on from an earlier thread where I posted the commemorative photo taken in 1929 to mark the 100th Anniversary of the Met Police, I have now broken it down into 5 sections and named most of the individuals. Some general notes which will help explain the ranks etc. In 1929 each Division in the Met was headed up by a Superindent. Then his rank insignia was a crown and a pip (as now worn by Ch Supt). There were also a number of Supts in Scotland Yard (CO Div) - the majority of these were detectives. The Divisions were grouped into a number of geographical areas (N,S,E & W), these were lead by a Chief Constable plus one Chief Constable was responsible for the detectives. Then above these were a number of Assistant Commissioners and the Commissioner - all these posts were filled with direct appointments of ex officers from the services. The first officer to rise through the ranks to reach Assistant Commisioner (and ultimately deputy to the Commissioner) was Sir James Olive who had retired in 1925, a few years before this photograph was taken. He had joined in1872 as a PC. Sadly for his replacement they reverted to type of appointing a top tier man from the armed services. There are however some Chief Constables in the photo who have risen through the ranks. Here is part 1 - working from the left hand side

I have broken the picture into five sections (each around 120K). After I have posted the first part it won't allow me to add the next as I have exceeded the max 140K limit. Will try to see if there are others ways of posting the pictures. Re the avatar - yes it is an earlier Met helmet plate which bore the officer's Division (F = Paddington) and the officer's Divisional Number (lower numbers were normally allocated to Sergeants). At that time the badges for inspectors just showed their division. I will dig out the few images I have of helmet badges. I have just worked out that between 23/06/1900 to 27/03/1909 the helmet plate 38F was worn by PS Henry Lawless (Warrant Number 71470) - good name for a policeman!

I saw this thread when first posted but I've finally found a photograph I had of the senior officers which was taken at Scotland Yard to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the Met. I can break it down into smaller sections and identify most of the officers if anyone is interested I forgot to say - that is an excellent certificate you have there Mervyn

Interesting career for your man Edward E Emeny Despite several disciplinary offences, including being moved for one (which is usually a sign it was more serious) he still didn't get demoted and continued with his promotion to Insp Here are some extracts from the Police Orders 24/10/1884 58819 PS P To A 13/12/1884 58819 PS A To W 09/04/1888 58819 PS No 40 W To P (No 51) 12/09/1889 58819 PS No 51 P To Y as Sub Insp 24/04/1890 58819 Sub Insp Y To T (Disciplinary) 30/12/1893 58819 Sub Insp T To Insp F 29/04/1895 58819 Insp F Disciplinary 07/01/1899 58819 Insp F Disciplinary 09/04/1900 58819 Insp F Pensioned A = Whitehall, F = Paddington, P = Camberwell, T = Hammersmith, W = Clapham, Y = Highgate The Sub Insp grade became the Station Sergeant rank around 1900 If you are able to find the actual Police Orders around the time of his various disciplinary offences you may find out what he did wrong. I suspect that the underlying problem with his 1890 offence was that he didn't get on with his immediate superior. The fact that he was promoted again three years later shows they must have thought he was a good police officer. He doesn't appear to have come back in 1902 as a pensioner for the 1902 Coronation. So that is probably his sole entitlement.

Supt Carr's replacement was Supt Edward Glayzer (Warrant No 66790) so he is also probably in the photo with Carr

In 1907 Camberwell Division was P Division (just checked with the Law Directories for 1905 and 1910) and this included Camberwell Police Station. The senior officer would have been a Superintendent at that time (the rank of Ch Supt was not in use then). I have checked through the Police Orders I have here and on 2 Dec 1907 the Supt of P Div Mr George Carr retired (his Warrant Number was 50604). So I think this could be Mr Carr's retirement do.