A Few Interesting Bars

[dwmosher]

Here are a few ribbon combinations for discussion that seem a bit odd to me. From top l to r:

1) EK2, Hamburg Cross, ?

2) Bavarian MVO 4th w/ crown and swords, EK2, Bulgarian Balkan Wars Commemorative Medal 1912-13??

3) EK2, Saxe-Meiningen War Merit Cross, Hindenburg w/ swords, ?

4) Russian St. Stan??, Prussian long service, centennial medal

5) EK2, Wurtt. gold or silver Military Merit Medal, Nazi Merit Cross 2nd Cross, a cornicopia of vet ribbons

Regards

Dave

backs

[Willi]

# 2: 1st ribbon is a for a Bavarian Military Merit CROSS 2nd class w crown and swords, the 2 others are correct. Was from an NCO, not an officer.

[webr55]

1) EK2, Hamburg Cross, ?

Can't tell from here if #2 is really Hamburg, but #3 is the Hungarian WW1 Commemorative Medal

2) Bavarian MVO 4th w/ crown and swords, EK2, Bulgarian Balkan Wars Commemorative Medal 1912-13??

Again: #3 is the Hungarian WW1 Commemorative Medal

3) EK2, Saxe-Meiningen War Merit Cross, Hindenburg w/ swords, ?

#3: Some grade of the Red Cross/Volkspflege decoration.

4) Russian St. Stan??, Prussian long service, centennial medal

Not sure.

5) EK2, Wurtt. gold or silver Military Merit Medal, Nazi Merit Cross 2nd Cross, a cornicopia of vet ribbons

That is an odd combination. Behind the KVK2 seem to be the Bavarian Ludwig Cross, W?rttemberg Merit Cross, Hohenzollern, Baden Jubilee, Bavarian Long Service (?) and ?.

That would indicate a Bavarian senior rear-area NCO-equivalent with some peacetime pre-1914 awards, but only the Ludwig Cross from his homestate, who also placed the W?rttemberg medal first. No Hindenburg, but a KVK2. That is odd.

[Willi]

2) Bavarian MVO 4th w/ crown and swords, EK2, Bulgarian Balkan Wars Commemorative Medal 1912-13??

No, cannot be an MVO! It has to be the Bavarian Military Merit Cross 2nd class w crown and swords, and there is a clear explanation for this fact: If it was the MVO 4th another ribbon for an MVO has to be on the bar or there has to be more ribbons for other medals/orders on the field bar. There was not one officer who just had the 4th class MVO w crown and swords.

Edited August 5, 2006 by Willi

[Paul R]

No, cannot be an MVO! It has to be the Bavarian Military Merit Cross 2nd class w crown and swords, an there is a clear explanation for this fact: If it was the MCO 4th another ribbon for an MVO had to be on the bar or there had to be more ribbons for other medals/orders on the field bar. There was not one officer who just had the 4th class MVO w crown and swords.

Hi webr55,

I dont think that the red and black ribbon is a KVK2, rather a Kyff medal. I love that bar....

[Guest Rick Research]

webr55 and Paul are correct.

Second ribbon on the first bar is actually the WWI Tyrol Commemorative Medal with its narrow green center stripes faded away in the white side stripes. That often happened with this ribbon and that of the Hungarian WW1 commemorative medal-- the green dye was not color fast-- at least for 70 years!

That could indeed be either the Bavarian Military Merit Order 4X with Crown or the Bavarian Military Merit Cross 2 X with Crown-- far more likely the former as the second award of this class to a junior officer than to a senior NCO since there is no long service ribbon. One way to tell, although not foolproof, is if the Crown and Xs devices are actually real silver on many wartime bars. If so, the only examples I have ever seen were for the Order, which WAS silver, and not the alloy MMC2. Of course, by the late 1920s, this device being alloy would be quite normal for either-- I have never seen real silver devices that late. In any case, the same class of the same model Order with swords but without crown (so = applied to all 1914-18 "X" awards of any M1913 3rd or 4th class) had to be physically returned to the Orders Chancery before one with swords AND crown was actually sent to a recipient. Recipients were required to sign receipts to this end:

[attachmentid=48780]

Hauptmann Bielke was NOT deceased-- he was obliged to return his MVO4X when he received the second award of the same class with Crown-- and received this rather ghoulish paperwork back in receipt thereof.

Bar 4 is indeed the Russian St Stanislaus Order or various medals on that ribbon in incorrect first place. More surprising is that it is in the South German style, although to some person with a Prussian (or Imperial navy/Schutztruppen) long service award.

[Paul R]

Thanks for the detailed information, Rick. You are a ribbon bar GOD!!

[Willi]

In any case, the same class of the same model Order with swords but without crown (so = applied to all 1914-18 "X" awards of any M1913 3rd or 4th class) had to be physically returned to the Orders Chancery before one with swords AND crown was actually sent to a recipient.

This is not true. If an officer had won the MVO knights cross 1st or 2nd class w X in the Colonial wars (China, Soutwest-Africa) and won the MVO w crown and X he was permitted according to the regulations to wear them both on one medal bar (see medal bar of Maj Rohe!).

How would you explain, that an officer who had won the MVO 4th class X and and afterwords -as his rank did not make it possible to award the MVO 3rd class- won the 4th class w CROWN and X and had NO OTHER medals than the Iron Cross and the Bulgarian medal? This is 99.9 % impossible and makes clear, that the ribbon stands for the MVK 2nd w crown X.

There is no proof for the theory that officer's ribbon devices were made of silver. One can find them, but silver or alloy was just the decision to spent more or less money, as all the field bars were custom made and had to be paid by the buyer, there is also no state or governmental regulation about device materials in this case.

[dwmosher]

So the long bar belonged to the biggest Bullsh@ter in the whole Wurttemberg army!!

I don't if this makes it clearer or not, but here is a closer shot of the Bavarian bar. The crown and sword device are a single piece, but appears that they were separate pieces which have been attached together. Also, the device may have been gilded and has worn off (look between the crown and swords). I'm not sure how the two pieces were initially attached, so perhaps its not gilding but braizing???

Dave

[Guest Rick Research]

That discoloration is probably just the brazing's age over all these decades. The huge bold crown and Xs looked real silver to me in the smaller scan and might still be in this one-- which could be old stock being used up the way "leftover" circa 1916-18 Feldgrau painted tab back metal parts can still be found being used in WW2 on odd occasions. Since that is a circa 1928-34 bar, standards might not have slipped yet. I just don't have such a device from that narrow period in my vast 40 years collection as comparison.

Similar two pieces (not joined) in real silver from an attributed WW1 war years ribbon bar:

[attachmentid=48794]

But this very heavily silver plated early WW2 example on another attributed bar has the same patina:

[attachmentid=48795]

Both these were direct first awards of MVO4XmKr since the recipients were "Majors" (a Korvettenkapit?n and an Oberstabsarzt) and at that rank initial awards of this grade were made with Crown, unlike lower ranking officers for whom the same award was a second bestowal of the same class.

By the mid 1930s, the usual form of alloy device was this standard, in bronze, silver, or gold finish depending on which of many awards used the combination:

[attachmentid=48796]

As far as the peculiar wearing of enemy awards (in first place!) bar goes... strange things happened! Here is a photo taken during the war of proud Offizierstellvertreter Schneider wearing a pre-war Tsarist Zeal Medal on the Saint Stanislaus ribbon on what was obviously a tab-backed trapezoid medal bar-- note that he has chosen to remount the Iron Cross ribbon fixture upside down for his wacky personal fashion statement!!!

[attachmentid=48803]

[attachmentid=48804]

The record, BTW, that I have seen on vanity self-purchase 1920s veterans awards is 12 in one group. His comrades must have rolled around on the floor howling with laughter!