Soviet Red Banner Questions...

[Stogieman]

Can I get some opinions on this center?? Thanks!

[NavyFCO]

Looks like one of those ones with the "ghost" lines around the H&S. The enamel though is better than most that I see with this though... From my monitor, that could all be shadow from the scan... The silver parts certainly look to have about the right wear and tear for a wartime piece though, and the red enamel looks about right given the lighting. Please post some pics of the rest of the Banner.

Edited September 12, 2006 by NavyFCO

[Riley1965]

Dave,

I have to agree. The ghost lines jumped out at me. But, without seeing the rest...

Doc

[Mondvor]

This part of the Red Banner looks absolutely normal to me. But I would agree with other members that it's better to place the picture of entire order. Otherwise it's like to place a picture of a belly button and ask if it's a man or a woman

[Riley1965]

Andrey, you are so right about the belly buttons !!! LOL I would still like to see the obv & rev of this ORB.

Doc

[Stogieman]

The remainder of the front...

[NavyFCO]

From the larger photo, the award looks okay to me, but I am no expert (I am aware of your opinion on "Soviet experts") I still don't like the shadow around the hammer and sickle though. Is there a chance that the screwpost was replaced? The heat from that would cause "shadowing" similar to this.

Dave

[Riley1965]

I, too, am no expert. The only thing that bothers me is the shadow around the Hammer & sickle. Otherwise, it looks okay.

Doc

[Stogieman]

Seller's description:

Order of the Red Banner, Type 2, Var 2, #63181, circa early to mid 1943. Silver gilt, enamels. Height 40 mm (measured from the top of the flag to the bottom of the wreath). Width 36.3 mm. Type 2, Variation 3, Sub-variation 1 by Durov & Strekalov classification, manufactured by the Krasnokamsk Mint in 1942.

Near excellent condition, most outstanding for a Red Banner of this vintage. Enamel on the flag shows only a single area of surface chips near the edge, immediately above the center of the star. There are also tiny flakes to the edge in few other spots, almost unnoticeable to the naked eye. Enamel of the plaque, star and white background is perfectly intact. Original gilt to the wreath is fully present and is made more beautiful by silver patina.

This order has not been converted to suspension, and has original full length screw post. Comes with original silver screw plate.

Excellent example for the most discriminating collector.

$1,085.00

[Mondvor]

I think enamel and screwpost are original. Here is a picture of the reverse. No signs of repaired screpost.

[Mondvor]

About grayish shadow in the center... It's a common thing. Look at this order, it has same thing around hammer and sickle.

[Stogieman]

Shucks Andrei, I was saving "full disclosure" for later.

Herein lies some of the pratfalls of Soviet collecting that I see... We have one person make several posts that any ORB with this shadow is bad. Then another person states that it's "a common thing".

My feelings are that there's so much still undetermined that any kind of "absolute" cannot be made yet. Lots of experience out there and I respect each and every one of you with it. But what then does the novice collector do when there's such a dichotomy of opinion amongst the experienced. I cannot answer that question for myself, much less anyone else.

With respects to Dave's comment about "experts". Yes, I'm having a very difficult time with that phrase these days.

One person states a badge is fake. Many months later the same person profers up the exact same photos except this time the badge is "good example of what these should be"?!!?

I show a badge photo from Igor Moiseyev's website to the four (4) "accepted experts" "best in the US".... do you think there was consensus? Not at all. 1 "fake", 1 "real", 1 "maybe" and 1 "how much would you pay for my real one".... experts? Hmmmm?

It seems in the short time I have expressed an interest in Soviet pieces, there's been nothing but contradictory advice, guidance, etc. There also seems to be a great deal of the "everything I have is real", "everything else is not" syndrome so prevelant amongst German WW2 collectors.

My feeling at this point is there's only three (3) people I would trust enough to buy from, excluding the little knick-knack pieces that cost nothing, but I enjoy nonetheless. Maybe because nobody else cares about them.... And only those three as until someone can demonstrate otherwise, they really do seem to not only have a depth of knowledge and experience that others do not, they stand behind their items and their opinions unconditionally.

[Ed_Haynes]

Sure, fakes are about, but I am very afraid that Soviet collecting is getting infected with the "Third Reich Disease", and arguing that "Everything I have is REAL, and if your specimen differs from mine then it is FAKE FAKE FAKE!"

Right . . .

Edited September 13, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Mondvor]

Gentlemen, I think we all should realize that there is no "single feature" that would determine wether or not particular order is real or fake. There are many components that we should pay attention to. Mintmark, serial number style, enamel color, patina, traces of wear, goldplating, "watermarks", similarity to close numbered "neighbours" and many other things. Understanding of all that staff normally comes with the experience. If one would examine carefully ten screwback Red Banners, then eleventh item would not be a hard one to detrermine it's authenticity. And no expert would help you. Even a Great Experts can make mistakes. Try to become your own expert. Start from simple things and then proceed further. Collect pictures and scans, compare them. Look for "watermarks". Read all possible literature. And after some time you'll greatly improve your skills.

[NavyFCO]

Sure, fakes are about, but I am very afraid that Soviet collecting is getting infected with the "Third Reich Disease", and arguing that "Everything I have is REAL, and if your specimen differs from mine then it is FAKE FAKE FAKE!"

I think part of that stems from the fact that anyone nowadays can sit behind a computer and make judgments about stuff that is posted up - basically becoming an "expert"... at least in their own mind. I can tell you that I found it very ironic that on another awards forum, a person was expelled for posting up numerous fakes and then arguing about them. I went to another forum, and lo and behold, this same person that was kicked off one was the lead forum moderator for the very same type of forum! Now go figure!

In this business, I would say that there are only around six people that I would trust making a call on orders and medals. (There may be more, but they aren't "regulars" in the same collecting circles as the rest of us, and there are undoubtedly quite a few in the FSU that we'll never encounter.) Decorations and badges are an entirely different field, and to be honest, I don't know of a single person (in the non-FSU world) that has the "all knowing eye" on all the different kinds of badges.

But as far as orders and medals, I can say that four of the six are members here (and two are known dealers.) One posts regularly, two occasionally post, and one simply "lurks". Of the two others, one doesn't do forums (that I know of) and the other is on another forum almost exclusively. There are other folks on the forums with varying degrees of expertise, and with particular areas of expertise.

All of the "experts" that I am thinking of are folks that have been doing this a long time - I would say at least since the mid-1990s - and have seen literally thousands of awards. And that's the key to being an expert: Not just having seen a lot of awards on forums online, but actually having felt and held these awards in person, checking them out with a loupe, measuring and weighing them.

For the rest of us, I think many of us have our opinions, but I don't think that any expertise should be taken based on that, which I think frustrates a lot of people (like stogie). I think that we might all want to take a look-see at what we all do post to see if we are posting (and making fake/real declarations) in or out of our realm of expertise and experience.

I know for myself, I've owned probably 800 (or more) Soviet awards and have seen double or triple that since 1992, but at the same time, my interest has been on documented groups and research. Other than the occasional tip-offs I know to look for on certain awards, I'm pretty much out of my element when it comes to declaring something fake or not. Now experience with documented groups? That's a different matter entirely, and that's where I don't mind making broad declarations just because I have 14 years experience in that area.

Anyway, enough of that soap box. When Stogie posted up the center of the RB, I had a pretty good feeling of what he was going to be posting down the thread. Perhaps my ESP is just acting up these days...

Dave

[NavyFCO]

Try to become your own expert. Start from simple things and then proceed further. Collect pictures and scans, compare them. Look for "watermarks". Read all possible literature. And after some time you'll greatly improve your skills.

I agree with everything Andrew said. One more thing I can add is to take every opportunity that you can to visit shows and dealers who have large stocks of awards. There are some dealers to be wary of, but the large dealers such as Igor M. have a fantastic selection of awards at almost every show. There is a Germany-based dealer who regularly has several hundred documented groups in his inventory. Make a point to go to the OMSA show or the SOS, where there are many tables of Soviet awards from many sellers. Take the time to look at the awards, and if they let you, take the time to look at them closely. Look at the documents closely. Compare what you see with some dealers with what others have. The best way to learn is to handle as much as you can. Take your loupe with you, and maybe a caliper and scale. Even if some of the sellers have an occasional bad piece (which happens) over time you'll be able to tell which ones they are, simply from handling as many as you can.

Just my two cents.

Dave

[Mondvor]

Dave, I think we can add another important point - let's cooperate! We are all collectors, not dealers. So we can help each other and share the knowledge we have. Together we can resist even advanced fake makers

[NavyFCO]

Dave, I think we can add another important point - let's cooperate! We are all collectors, not dealers. So we can help each other and share the knowledge we have. Together we can resist even advanced fake makers

Amen to that!

[Ed_Haynes]

Good thoughts, comrades!

It is one thing I really enjoiy about the OMSA, that the reliable dealers (dealer?) there will allow you to fondle and examine his goodies. As close as I'll ever get to wonders like a tractor Lenin. And there is no substitute for caressing real things and getting their "feel".

Never been to a SOS, but went to the MAX for the first time last year (as it was but 20 miles away and I knew two dealer-researcher-friends would be there). Woo, lots of Nazis . . . and a lot of Third Reich collectors too! Even if it were still close and I knew my friends would be there, I'd probably give it a pass.

OMSA!

[NavyFCO]

Never been to a SOS, but went to the MAX for the first time last year (as it was but 20 miles away and I knew two dealer-researcher-friends would be there). Woo, lots of Nazis . . . and a lot of Third Reich collectors too! Even if it were still close and I knew my friends would be there, I'd probably give it a pass.

The SOS is about 2x as large as the last OMSA I went to and is much more international than the MAX (thus the reason I don't go to the MAX.) After going to the OMSA show, and then going to an SOS later, I made up my mind to only go to the SOS unless the OMSA was someplace local (which is hasn't been since Philly.) All the major dealers who set up at OMSA are also set up at the SOS. This last year, I recall that there were at least seven dealers of Soviet awards there with significant stocks.

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

But isn't the SOS a "general militaria and all other stuff" show and HEAVILY German 1933-45? Personally, I value the ODM focus of the OMSA.

But we're getting -- sorry.

[Khyber]

This has been a very informative discussion. My thanks to all who contrbited their thoughts and expertise.

Ron

[NavyFCO]

But isn't the SOS a "general militaria and all other stuff" show and HEAVILY German 1933-45? Personally, I value the ODM focus of the OMSA.

But we're getting -- sorry.

What's the point of a thread unless you can go down at least a dozen rabbit trails?

In my opinion, the SOS isn't heavily German. I think it's about as even as you can get amongst all nations militaria. In fact, I'd say it leans more heavily US than anything else.

Dave

[Riley1965]

Andrey,

I think you "hit the nail on the head"!! When I first started collecting Soviet ODMs I didn't know anything and made a bad purchase. Over the years I've learned so much. I also, like all others, have a lot more to learn. Time, reading everything I can and collecting and closely looking at each piece has brought me to where I am today...Fairly good with knowledge and ALWAYS eager to learn more.

Doc

[Mondvor]

Doc, you are absolutely right. We all start our collections from some mistakes, but after some time we gain certain amount of experience.

I was really lucky because I started to collect Soviet awards during the "Golden Age", when prices were low and even rare pieces were available in big quantities. Another good thing - I lived in Kiev at that time. Kiev was a capital for all collectors from former USSR, because in Russia this hobby was strictly prohibited. But in Ukraine it was fine. So dealers from Russia, Ukraine, Baltic Countries and other places brought their stuff to Kiev. I remember that dozens of screwback Red Banners were available every Saturday and the price was from 60 USD for excellent condition award to 45 for the one with broken enamel. Early Bravery and MM medals with hand-engraved numbers were for sale in many places, and most of them with original suspension. The price was around 25 USD.

I remember that I refused to buy a set with Glory 2nd class, Glory 3rd class and 6-digit Red Star (all in good condition and with orderbook) for the price of 55 USD only because both Glories had their connection rings cut. I was looking for absolutely mint condition with intact silver-alloy soldered connection rings.

Yes, I was really spoiled And I miss this time a lot!!! Everything have changed now and the prices in Kiev for some awards are even higher than in USA

Edited September 14, 2006 by Mondvor