Fake Fake Orders and medals database

[JimZ]

I have noticed that the "Soviet & Eastern Block Orders, Medals and Decorations" has a vast wealth of information spread all over the place. I would like to propose that we establish a thread in parallel to the "Fake orderbooks" to serve as a database for orders and decorations on the market that are fake or suspected as being such. Ideally if members can post pics of fakes or suspected fakes for member review and comment, we can have all future info concentrated in one area withinn the forum.

Appreciate comments and suggestions in this regard from the long standing members of this community of collectors and I hope this idea can both take off as well as be of assistance to whoever needs the info to be contained in this database.

Many thanks,

Jim

[order_of_victory]

Good thought Jim,

Here are a few fakes and suspected fakes from my collection

Order of Victory

[JimZ]

[Dolf]

Jim,

Good idea!

Anyway, if to be used as a reference, especially for new collectors, wouldn't it be easier to concentrate all this info in one thread by listing those pieces by S/Ns whenever possible, eventually with pics, and just pics of those pieces without a S/N, rather than listing links?

Just MHO,

Dolf

[JimZ]

Jim,

Good idea!

Anyway, if to be used as a reference, especially for new collectors, wouldn't it be easier to concentrate all this info in one thread by listing those pieces by S/Ns whenever possible, eventually with pics, and just pics of those pieces without a S/N, rather than listing links?

Just MHO,

Dolf

Sure...why not......we can put up general fakes like say odessa, sevastopol medals or list numbered orders and pics....anything will do as long as we can organise. Suggestions welcome as well as posts.... wanna dig some up when i find the time.

[JimZ]

Ok...some of the fake stuff going around at the moment:

[attachmentid=57092][attachmentid=57093][attachmentid=57094]

I notice the following:

Reverse:

1) Lack of serial number

2) Engraved mintmark like V1 but much smaller than is supposed to be

2) Larger than usual rivets

3) Shoddy welded on suspension ring at 12 o'clock should be made as part of the medal

4) Attachments holding pin to suspension rounded at the ends as opposed to being straight lines

Obverse:

1) Goldplating (if?! on star) and on suspension (almost looks like paint)

2) Clumsy lettering

3) Notice how thin the suspension ring really is

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=57100] [attachmentid=57102] [attachmentid=57101]

3 service medals almost looking like the normal service medals we all know (and some of us love to go after). However what should be gold and silver plating does not stand up to observation. Neither does the enamel on the 1st class.

Some of these medals are less common then others and they are of course starting to be copied and sold. Its ok to buy as a gap filler as long as one knows what he is buying. Of course, there would be a lot for gap filling if ones has to fill the gaps for all the variations of MVD and MOOP service medals.

Closer detail pics of these copies/fakes/repros in the next posts.

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=57110] [attachmentid=57111] [attachmentid=57112]

Note the grainy texture of the medal and lack of crisp detail. The silver/gold plating which is not....and the enamel what also is notl

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=57116] [attachmentid=57114] [attachmentid=57115]

And of course detail of reverse. Uzbekistan MOOP...I did say desirable no? But not on that quality of medal!

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=57119] [attachmentid=57120] [attachmentid=57121]

Fake Medal for the Development of the Petrochemical Complex of Western Siberia. Not the most common medal to come by and probably one of the hardest of the restoration, construction and development set to come by (together with the Development of the Non Black Earth Region of RSFSR).

This medal lacks the crisp detail seen in originals especially in areas such as the towers. The lettering also lack crispness and the surface is very revealing as to the fact that such a medal is not orignal. Also note the ring is completely wrong as it should be rounded and made as part of the medal. Once again, buy as a gap filler if you please but not as an original.

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=57136] [attachmentid=57143]

Medal for Distinction in guarding the State Border of the USSR. - Where does one start with this medal!

The reverse shows the inferior quality of this medal - The suspension ring is as wrong as it comes as is the rasied rim aroung the edge of the medal showing mould or file marks. The surface is stippled and there is no tarnishing on this heavy metal medal as one would expect on a silver/nickel silver or silver plated medal as per var 1,3 and 2 of this medal respectively.

The obverse also lacks detail and the quality and crispness of the border guard, mountains and the border marker leaves so much to be desired. The surface of the medal which should be smooth is anything but! The suspension ring looks as bad from the obverse as from the reverse. A desirable medal indeed - but very faked as well of course!!

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=57160] [attachmentid=57161]

Partisan medal 1st class - Another common fake medal one often sees from time to time. I sadly miss the partisan medals in my collection.

The obverse lacks the crisp detail that you would expect around the faces. If you study the profiles you would also notice subtle differences from documented originals. The medal is also completely missing the raised rim ring that goes around the banner edging the medal. I think the ring on this particular piece is a good attempt although it still lacks the quality to it. I am not sure if the rings were usually welded in an upturned U shape as opposed to a full circular ring. What should be tarnish above Stalin's head are probably burn marks form the welding/soldering of the suspension ring.

The lettering on the reverse of this piece once again lacks crispness round the base of the lettering. Whereas one could expect some wear and tear from wearing on the reverse, the letters seem to lack the relief and definition they should have. Also the thickness of certain letters is inconsistent with the original. Lets take two letters as examples - the "Ш" in "HAШУ" and the "Д" in "POДИHУ" whereby the upright arms of the "Ш" are too thin and the triangular space within the "Д" is far too large on this piece when compared to documented originals. Also the vertical file markings round the rim and the uneven edge around the obverse rim (sometimes almost departing from a circular shape!!!) do not help this piece either.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Jim,

many thanks for the "excellent" examples!

I think, that these awards are casted - as you can see at the surface - and not struck, like authentic medals from the mint.

But such casted fakes are rather easy to dedect. Some days ago I spoke with a friend of mine, who owns some establishments for producing - high grade - juwellery in Europe and Asia. He told me, that for the forgers it would be no problem to produce strucked fakes of Soviet awards in the future. It's just the matter of a (rather small - in comparison to the profits) investment for the machinery and the new machineries for strucking medals or coins are rather small in space.

So it might become a "hard life" for new collectors of Soviet awards .

At the moment a large part of the forgers/dealers in the Ukraine and the Baltic States work still rather "primitive", but this might change.

There is already one order, Motherland 1cl, where an expert hardly can say, if it is genuine or a perfect fake: http://www.historicalresearch.com/authentication.html (they also include Motherland 2cl, but I think, that a mocked up 3cl to a 2cl might be easier to dedect, than a mocked up 2cl to a 1cl). A Motherland 2cl has still a market-price (well above USD 1.000,-) and a Motherland 1cl has almost no market-price - it's also rather rare .

What should the collectors community do, if the Russian Mint starts to produce - genunine (!) - Suvorovs, Ushakovs, etc. for the market? The larger Russian military units sold also their stocks of Motherlands (+ matching documents) during the 1990s.

Best regards

Christian Zulus

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=57186] [attachmentid=57188]

Another commonly faked medal...and I admit a hard one to make a call on as the quality of the obverse is in fact pretty outstanding. I do not like what appears to be a slight pebbling around the lettering as well as around other parts of the obverse on a surface that is supposed to be otherwise smooth. The miners hand seems a touch too clumsy. The suspension should be made as part of the ring and is usually flat on both sides. It is unclear whether this suspension ring is welded on or not but it does not look right on both sides of it. The ring surronding the edge on the medal is also not as cleanly defined as it should be.

The reverse of the medal is also hard to call as this medal is slightly pebbled on the rear which would conceal any unnatural marks from casting. The only faults I can find with the reverse is the lack of definition on the ring around the edge which seems totally flat on the upper parts of the medal and only slightly more defined at the bottom. Moreover, the edge does not always seem to be perfectly circular.

A tough one to call, but on account of the texture of the obverse the possible cast marks and the quanlity of the suspension ring I would not put my money on it.

Edited October 14, 2006 by jimzammit

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=57219]

This Order of the Mother Heroine comes with its small award booklet. Nice to have a documented order but I detect some inconsistencies here.

1) I have observed that whereas the Variation 1 stars are the same size as the silver rayed back, Variations 2 and 3 have a gold star which is slightly larger. This means that when flipped over, you should be able to see the tips of the gold stars on variations 2 and 3. In this piece it is clear that the star is too small for these variations. With such a high serial number, it should have a larger gold star.

2)The suspension in my opinion is neither completely consistent with a var 2 or var 3 (should be a 3 based on serial no.) but I have not seen enough pieces first hand to know if there were many different attachments for the pin apart from the ones consistent with the known variations.

3) The mint mark also seems to be stamped (although one cannot be 100pct sure from the original pics but if this was the case it would be an inconsistency).

I have strong suspicions that if this piece is at all original, the gold star may been replaced with a slightly smaller non gold star and the non tarnished reverse may be evidence of polished reverse (seeing the booklet we would all know why!) But then again, some OMH appear to almost have been manufactured from scratch...... My call based on the high serial number and the size of the star.....fake!

Edited October 14, 2006 by jimzammit

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=57224] [attachmentid=57225]

No comments required apart from the fact that some sellers 'forget' to mention its a copy or fake...... But the quality says it all....at least some times its easy! Magnigication works wonders when you cannot handle the piece!

[JimZ]

Today mythbusters brings to you:

[attachmentid=57651]

[attachmentid=57652] [attachmentid=57653]

So....note the wrong stamp on the booklet denoting Gorby as president before he was appointed as one in 1990. If the booklet is a fake and I can bet anything the medal too is fake...especially with a serial number as high as 2195! That red enamel must glow like something out of CSI under a black light! This is one of the easiest orders to fake. Apply gold plating on a 3rd class var 2 and enamel it....buff out the serial number and try to rip somebody off. I'd only buy a first class with a COA...that is why I do not have one (apart from it not being the most common piece around!!!)

Not only - but Andrei has helped me on this one also confirming, not only the wrong stamp and the high serial number but more importantly....the fact that the booklet itself is the wrong one for the Order of Labour Glory itself! Thanks for the Info!

I hope this saves some unaware bidder $3,850 on one of our lovely auction sites! Sadly the gent in question had a second one without booklet selling at just under $2,000 which seems to have disappeared. Sorry to the buyer....but if this guy is pushing a fake with a booklet, my guess is he'd also push a fake without a booklet......

Jim

[Christian Zulus]

You will find that Labour's Glory 1cl with booklet at the website of a well known dealer in Germany for EUR 1.375,-. He also offers a Red Banner #5 for EUR 950,- and a Red Banner #6 for EUR 1.500,-.

Unbelievable prices - if the pieces would be genuine .

Best regards

Christian

Edited October 21, 2006 by Christian Zulus

[JimZ]

Yes Christian, you can find it cheaper elsewhere and its from the same guy! The point of this thread is not to find the best priced fakes but to expose them, and where possible pin them up together with serial numbers when we have them, thus leaving them here for posterity.

Nor would I like to make this thread personal and expose indivdual sellers. I am trying to target fake items not black dealers. That homework is up to the individual collectors. However, having a reference framework to check with as much info on fake pieces as possible will help!

Fakes come on the market, not only in different ways but sometimes its the same bad penny cropping up. So if anyone is adding to the thread please add new info and do not dupliate existing info or pics. Otherwise its gonna be a real mess. Thanks Guys!

And do keep the info coming. Its a collective effort here.

Jim

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=57690] [attachmentid=57691]

Order of Red Banner 7th award - $9,800. What does one say to that! Where does one even start?!

The sad thing is that I believe in market economics and in this world...demand will equal supply. Lets hope that posting this piece makes it just that little bit harder.

Jim

Oh...I am on the look out for a redbanner numbered....lets see... "13" - Unlucky for some? Definitely will be when it somehow mysteriously surfaces out of nowhere. You think i'm being cheeky? All you need are a few silly people to buy each higher award produced..... Its a big world!

[Dolf]

Jim,

There seems to be some contradictory references about a eventual ORB 7th award.

Starting with the "bible": PMD says that: "The lowest S/N recorded for a # "7" Red Banner is # 6..... A # "7" Red Banner has been noted with S/N 9..." (He even mentions a ORB # 8 with S/N 4 !)

On the Shishkov & Muzalevsky book, Vol 1 page 60, they mention (not a full list!) eight holders of 7 Red Banner ! And on page 58 there is even a picture of a bar (I guess) of a holder of 7 ORB, including one with # 7 !

On the Mondvor site they mention that only one ORB with # 7 was awarded, to Major General of Aviation M. I. Burtsev (btw the 1st on the S & M list of 8 holders of 7 RBs).

On the main page of another Forum they say that "no RBs exist past 6th award" so those with # 7 and # 8 are fake!

This is the result of a quick research, anyway only from these references there are quite a few contradictions!

Dolf

[JimZ]

Yes Dolf. Agreed 100 percent that there are varying expert opions! Whereas I personally chose to take anything above number 6 award with more than a pinch of salt, we should pick this up on the red banners thread.....very very willingly .

Notwithstanding my personal view that anything above the number 6 award is scary and probably fake.... at least in the hands of us common mortals, the mint mark and the suspension ring I believe are sufficient enough to disqualify this particular piece.

Jim

Edited October 20, 2006 by jimzammit

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

I have moved my ORB #7 & #8 commentaries to a new thread:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=12109

Best regards

Christian Zulus

Edited October 21, 2006 by Christian Zulus

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

I have moved my ORB #7 & #8 commentaries to a new thread:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=12109

Best regards

Christian Zulus

Edited October 21, 2006 by Christian Zulus

[JimZ]

Christian I already proposed that this discussion be picked up elsewhere!

The rules of this thread are to be as follows if it is to work out:

1) This thread is aimed to expose fakes orders and medals. Please add on to it if you have material that you have seen available for sale and want to report.

2) Only post if you a) have new material to add and b) want to add something about specific pieces

3) Do not specifically name or indicate where fakes are found but just expose the pieces and use this as a reference library for anyone wanting to check listed pieces

4) Do not double post pics already posted

5) If you want to discuss anything else, kindly paste a link of the thread the discussion is to be continued in and take it elsewhere. Otherwise this thread will become too cumbersome for users and will not achieve its original purposes.

Its simple - stick to the rules and keep this thread for what it was intended. For that, I thank you all!

Jim

PS - And for crying out loud lets not use bold text or caps!