Christian Zulus Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Gentlemen,For years there is a discussion among the collectors community and their experts, wether ORBs #7 & #8 had been issued or not.There is even some evidence (discussion in the "other" Soviet-Award-Forum some time ago), that the tools for for ORB #9 already exist at the Russian Mint (Monetny Dwor), but the ORB #9 had been never issued during CCCP-times and that the Russian Mint produced a series of - more or less - "genuine" - ORBs #9 for the collectors market - to earn some extra money to their small salleries?BTW: The activities at the Russian Mint might be quite interesting . At another thread at this forum http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11738 I asked, if some of our members have any informations about the Russian Mint, concerning the production of orders and medals.ORB #7 & #8 are mentioned (but no photographs!) at the PMD-Bible on page 82 and at Herfurth's (the expert, who has written the foreword of the PMD-Bible) small catalogue, 4th edition, on page 63 with photographs of ORB #7 & #8 on page 62.On the other side Dietrich Herfurth told to me, that he photographed ORB #7 & #8 from a collection located in Germany and that he is not sure, if the two pieces were genuine or well made fakes.In Dietrich Herfurth's first comprehensive book of the year 1987 (years before the market for Soviet awards began to exist!) published in the GDR (DDR) - "Milit?rische Auszeichungen der UdSSR", Milit?rverlag der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik (VEB), Berlin (East) 1987 - you will find on page 90 some informations about ORB #7:"The first, who received the Order of the Red Banner #7, was the Major General of the VVS M. I. Burtzev. He received in 1967 the Order #7 with the s/n. 1 .... Among the other recipients of the Order of the Red Banner #7 were Marshall of the VVS I. I. Pstygo, Colonel General of the Armoured Troops K. G. Kozhanov as the Colonel Generals of the VVS S. D. Gorelov and I. I. Kozhedub."At the "other" forum for Soviet awards it is stated for years, that "NO RED BANNERS EXIST PAST 6TH AWARD."Did Soviet's fighter-ace-no.-1 Marshal Kozhedub receive instead a prestigeous ORB #7 a blank and ordinary ORB? Are there reasonable arguments, why the Soviet Union - during the first years of the Brezhnev-Era! - should not have allowed the Mint to modify some tools for the production of ORB #7. Comrade Brezhnev was sooooo proud about fine orders . Forgers can do it, why not the official Mint?At the website of a very well known US-dealer I found the attached photograph of Kozhedub from the late 1970s, showing all his seven ORBs, but the number 7 is a blank and ordinary ORB and not a ORB #7! So Marshal Kozhedub never received a ORB #7, but another ORB.Gentlemen, does anyone have further informations about the existence - or non-exisence - of genuine ORBs #7 & #8?Best regardsChristian Zulus[attachmentid=57879] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christophe Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Christian,Fascinating subject!!! We will certainly write and speak lengthly about it...I'm not an expert, so don't have anything valuable to add from my own experience to what you very accurately said. Your post summarizes perfectly well the actual state of the art of this discussion.I just would like to ask that I know 2 more pictures of the ORB #7. These two pics show the same order, with the SN #1. I'm not saying here the ORB shown is a real one. In my view, impossible to tell from the pics...The 1st pic is in Avers n?6, page 122. It displays the obverse and reverse of the ORB#7 with SN #1, without ring and suspension It is said in page 100 that Burtsev has been awarded his #7 on 31 October 1967. As far as I understand, a SN #2 is also mentionned, but not shown.The 2nd pic is in "The Order of the Red Banner" by Valeriy Durov and Nikolay Strekalov (2006). It is exactly the same order, but only the reverse is shown (page 171), with ring, without suspension. I'm sorry to say my Russian does not allow me to fully understand what is said as a comment.Hope this helps... Let now the "real"experts talk... Cheers.Ch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimZ Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 And the bible says: "The lowest serial number recorded for a number "7" Red banner is number 6. Rarity Rating R5. A number 7 Red banner has been noted with serial number 9 and a number 8 with the serial number 5 as well. Rarity Ratings: R5."Can someone ask PMD for futher explanations of what "recorded" and "noted" mean?. Is recorded observed? Does "recorded" mean that in archives we can find that someone was given a 7th award? That still does not mean that its got #7 on the front (let alone 8 or 9). Also...what does "noted" mean? If these can be clarified its already one step forward.Also, if we had to hit the archives what would we find? A 6th award only? A 7th, 8th or 9th? At least we would then that somebody was in fact awarded the Red banner so many times. Of course then the quest for documentary evidence in the form of perid photos should follow.With the utmost respect to the experts....when pieces of such rarity are discussed it should be documentation and research that does the talking and they should be clear on this. If any room for speculation is left, if shadows are cast, then someone will eventually create and put the piece on the market.... If and when there is no evidence, experts are expected to be be clear about this and state the fact categorically. We will love them even more for that! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Much as believe in the value of "the records" -- more, I think, than most -- I'm not sure how much the familiar records will help us here. We'll be able to get, as we have in print (right?), a list of people who were awarded, let's say, the ORB 7 times. I am choosing my words carefully: they were given the award that number of times, these records can't tell us what their badge looked like, that is not the function of the commonly-consulted records. To determine what was ACTUALLY awarded, it will require close examination of photographs or, better yet, of the groups themselves. When we see a photo like that of Kozhedub which Christian put before us, we then have the other side of the evidence: what the awardee's insignia actually looked like.To answer the question from the records will require looking at records of the mint, to see what badge(s) they actually struck. (And this gets us back to Christian's earlier query as to how the mint actually functioned.) But one thing is clear, all governments keep records of one thing in particular: how they spend their money. Whether capitalist or socialist, spending money by the State always generates a paper trail and these awards cost money to produce (though, should we ever find the records, we may well be shocked at how little they cost). Striking ORBs with the numbers "7", "8", or "69" at the mint would have required modest retooling and this would have left even more of a paper trail. All the records that folks like us commonly see are military (reflecting our pro-military bias) and the few records of civilian awards are still exotic to folks like us; what we haven't seen are any records or research from the mint side. I don't pretend to know how Soviet-era archives are organised, of if they are even organised, but this seems like the research agenda that will be needed.Until then, we have lists of recipients and may be able to assemble photographic evidence of the awards in wear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerd Becker Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) Great discussion unfortunately i don?t have anything to add. Edited October 22, 2006 by Gerd Becker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Great discussion unfortunately i don?t have anything to add.I agree... I would definately love to see one of these! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Great discussion unfortunately i don?t have anything to add.I have to admit that the ORB is a new arena in Soviet ODMs for me. I have one T2V2 screwpost and one double banner group without the #2 on the second. I'll just listen and learn for this thread. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 ORB #7: The Kozhedub-CaseGentlemen,many thanks for your interest in discussing the aspect of "ORB #6 +" .The Kozhedub-Case should be rather well documented, I assume. He was the greatest fighter ace (outside Germany) of all times in history, a genius and a true artist in the skies. He even shot down one german ME 262 jet fighter with his LA-7. He was an very important person in Soviet History (from GPW till 1991) and promoted to the rank of a Marshal. What I want to say is, that Marshal (at the time he got his seventh ORB: Col. General) Kozhedub was not a swine farmer, head of a collective farm, who produced 250 pigs over the plan and should have received his 2nd HSL with "II" at the rv., but got only another HSL without the "II" and the very low s/n. at the rv. Kozhedub had some "weight" in the Soviet adminstration.My theory: Maybe the ORBs #7 existed in the Soviet Union in the late 1960s only on the paper and at the records & archives. Maybe we might find in the records, that Kozhedub received a ORB #7 with the s/n. X, but actually he got an ordinary ORB with the s/n. XXX.XXX, as we see it at the photograph and as it should be listed in his orders booklet . The regulations of the ORB she very clearly, that the awardees have to receive their ORBs with subsequent numbers: ORB, ORB #2, ORB #3, ..... But what to do, when the Mint can not deliver an ORB #7?My experience as a historian focussed at Soviet history is, that the Soviet adminstration was already in the late 1960s in a mass and the whole country in decline. So I might be possible, that the official records show a perfect socialistic world - the generals got their ORBs #7 & #8 with the one-digit-s/n. -, but in reality everybody got only a simple ORB with a XXX.XXX s/n. Maybe the Mint argued, that it doesen't make sense to produce new tools for a handful of new ORBs for old generals? Maybe they had been too lazy? Maybe they had their new tools in the 1970s or 1980s for producing ORBs #7, #8 and #9 (?) and the Supreme Soviet had been too lazy to exchange the awards for Kozhedub & Co.? My speculations .I have a rather similar case of my theory - records vs. orders booklet & real medal - in my modest collection: The case of Sergeant Gnitienko's Glory-Trio, who got Glory 1cl with s/n. 1965 (cavaliers booklet + 3 orders are without the slightest doubt 100% genuine), but the archives say, that he received Glory 1cl with s/n. 3646. I documented the Gnitienko-Case (+ a rather fruitful discussion) in this thread: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5536Gentlemen, does anyone have access to the archives concerning Kozhedub's last ORB? Has anyone similar experiences with genuine high-grade sets, where the archives in Moscow note differnt s/n.?Best regardsChristian Zulus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Beyond supposition and theory, it would be interesting to get Kozhedub's file and see what it says. If nothing else, his recommendations would make interesting reading!And where are his medals now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 Dear Ed,maybe Igor knows where his medals are . At least he offers Kozhedub's large Marshal-Star-Document + a lot of other documents & photographs at his website. The market value of Kozhedub's complete orders & medals - Marshal Star, 3x HSU, 7x ORB, etc. - would be interesting .Best regards Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimZ Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Ed - Maybe as we speak right now, someone at the mint has undertaken some "modest retooling" and is currently stamping that ORB#69. Might be very collectible and for other reasons too! Kidding aside, someone did start a thread asking what it would cost to got to the mint and get your own order on request upon presentation of a sum of money... Wonder what happens if someone goes to ask for...say...an ORB with any number... 2 - 9 for arguments sake! Hard cash may be cold but it does seem to make the world go round at times! As for the integrity of the Russian mints....I know that I am not even giving them the benefit of the doubt!But yes the question remains...where are these high numbered awards....and if they are nowhere to be found, then there must be photos or some other sort of evidence....if ever they existed.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RedThreat Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) Andrey hasn't joined the discussion yet but on his website it states that Airforce Major General Burtsev was awarded RB 7 s/n 1 in 1967 and that no RB 8 was awarded though Airforce Marshal Pstigo had 8 orders of RB.The "bible" says that RB 8 exists but I am fairly sure that I read in the list of typos that this order turned out to be a fake.Cheers, SimonP.S. Oops, Christian already gave this information. Edited October 22, 2006 by RedThreat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Come now, comrades, you can get an ORB "7" or "8" or "9" at almost any Manion's auction and I bet there are some on eBay right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerd Becker Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) Come now, comrades, you can get an ORB "7" or "8" or "9" at almost any Manion's auction and I bet there are some on eBay right now! Yes, exactly and this discussion now really got me worried about these from my collection. Do you think, they are fake? Edited October 22, 2006 by Gerd Becker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
order_of_victory Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Yes, exactly and this discussion now really got me worried about these from my collection. Do you think, they are fake? ROFL Order of Victory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 No, Gerd, those are just fine. They looks like ones I have too. Bought them in Berlin for 15 Euro Cents from a real Russian, so they must be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerd Becker Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 No, Gerd, those are just fine. They looks like ones I have too. Bought them in Berlin for 15 Euro Cents from a real Russian, so they must be good. Well, no i am relieved, thanks, Ed. These came from a honest ebay-dealer and i paid a lot of money for them, so they must be real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimZ Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Gerd....Please check....I am sure you must have the "69" and are keeping it to yourself...come on....show it off Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Dear Ed,maybe Igor knows where his medals are . At least he offers Kozhedub's large Marshal-Star-Document + a lot of other documents & photographs at his website. The market value of Kozhedub's complete orders & medals - Marshal Star, 3x HSU, 7x ORB, etc. - would be interesting .Best regards ChristianDmitri Markov has a couple of his documents as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerd Becker Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Oh, you have a good memory, Jim. Here it is, the version with the ultrarare crazy font-version. I also got that from the honest ebay-seller Valery Ribboff. I have bought the most of my ultrarare orders from this wonderful individual, who sells the rarest Orders for bargain-prices to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerd Becker Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Christian, i must have had a monkey for breakfast. I apologize, when i have captured your thread. I?ll remove everything unrelated to this discussion, if you wish so.Gerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) Lieber Gerd,no, don't do it - I am a friend of humour .Your scans represent a great work of art.Herzliche Gr??e ChristianChristian, i must have had a monkey for breakfast. I apologize, when i have captured your thread. I?ll remove everything unrelated to this discussion, if you wish so.Gerd Edited October 22, 2006 by Christian Zulus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Yes, while it is it is great fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 Dear Wild Card,many thanks for the hint. Dimitri offers some nice photographs and (not so important) documents for a very fair price.It seems to me, that the heirs of Marshal Kozhedub started to bring some material at the market.Maybe Igor or Dimitri will offer the complete collection of Kozhedub's awards & decorations and maybe Putin might sell Kozhedub's "White Number 27" LA-7 .Best regardsChristianDmitri Markov has a couple of his documents as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 ORB #8Dear Simon,many thanks for the new information, that Air Chief Marshal Ivan Pstygo should have got a ORB #8.Do you have any further informations about Ivan Pstygo? He had been a GPW-veteran of the Soviet Airforce and criticized Stalin's military policy in his memoirs. Are there any photographs showing comrade Pstygo with his 8 ORBs?Best regardsChristianAndrey hasn't joined the discussion yet but on his website it states that Airforce Major General Burtsev was awarded RB 7 s/n 1 in 1967 and that no RB 8 was awarded though Airforce Marshal Pstigo had 8 orders of RB.The "bible" says that RB 8 exists but I am fairly sure that I read in the list of typos that this order turned out to be a fake.Cheers, SimonP.S. Oops, Christian already gave this information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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