Imperial Bar, what is missing

[Josef Rietveld]

Dear gentlemen,

unfortunately i have only basic knowledge off imperial decorations and bars.

Sorry for the bad pictures (ebay)

Its no problem to identify the medals that are mounted on the bar:

1: IC 2

2:

3:Hindeburg Cross for Combattants

4:

5: Long Service Cross (Prussia) for 15 Years

6:

7: Austrian 60 Years Anniversary Medal for foreign Regiments wehre the emperor was Colonel in Chief

My questions:

What belongs to places 2, 4 and 6?

6 could be an austrian peacetime decoration (red ribbon) like an Golden or Silver Merit Cross with/without crown as it was given to NCO's in foreign regiments

The anniversary medal in Bronze was also given to NCO's that fitts for me

My general question: is this combination of awards, possible and makes sense?

On number 2 there must be a WW1-decoration, i think.

the award on number 4 follows the Hindenburg-crss. I guess it must be a peacetime-decoration

last question. i know the pictures are bad, but do you think the bar plus ribbons are new done?

thanks in advance

Josef (haynau)

[Dave Danner]

#2 is the Merit Cross with Swords (Verdienstkreuz mit Schwertern) from the Kingdom of W?rttemberg.

#4 is a W?rttemberg long service medal.

F?silier-Regiment Kaiser Franz Josef von ?sterreich, K?nig von Ungarn, (4. W?rttembergisches) Nr. 122 had the Austrian Kaiser as colonel-in-chief.

EDIT: could be the Merit Cross without Swords, since there's no swords device on the ribbon bar.

Edited October 21, 2006 by Dave Danner

[Steve Russell]

Josef,

Number two is likely the Wurttemburg Merit Cross with Swords (Verdienstkreuz mit Schwerten).

Number four is likely the Wurttemburg Long Service Medal, 9-years of Service.

The sixth Award I am guessing would be the 1908 Austrian Jubilee (Signum Memorae).

That's my stab at it. It is a nice bar and those missing medals are not impossible to find and the last two missing are pretty common. Steve

Edited October 21, 2006 by Steve Russell

[Jacky]

Nice bar & medals,

however, if I dare to point a comment??

from the picture it looks quite bright and new...

Could be also the flash??

kind regards,

Jacky

[Steve Russell]

Josef,

In addition to the fine example Dave posted, here are examples of the other two so you know what to look for. I'd post the backs but I am still 'on probation' as a new member and don't have the space allotted. The back of the long service says, Fu"r treue Dienst bei der Fahne' and has a wreath with 'IX.' The Austrian Award says 'Signum Memorae' on the reverse. If the bar was stored well, the ribbons can be quite nice. And to Dave, I thought of that as well but given the other combatant awards, it is just as likely the same. Steve

[attachmentid=57868]

Edited October 21, 2006 by Steve Russell

[Josef Rietveld]

thanks for yourcomments,

as soon as i get the bar i will make better pics to clarify if the ribbons are new.

@steve, one question: Why a 9-years-service-medal and not a 12-years-medal or a 15-years-service-cross. don't they have the same ribbon?

on 5th place i guess it was an austria merit cross. he must have enterd service before 1897/98 to get an austrian signum memoriae

@Dave

is there a swords device on such bars for the verdienstkreuz in most cases or is it a can-be-regulation

regards

josef (haynau)

[Mark M]

Josef

The Prussian LS award in number 5 makes no sense hanging on that bar, especially it there was a Wurttemberg LS in number 4. Looking at the reverse of the bar the last two hooks are different than the others, so my guess is that the bar was added onto at some point. The HK would have been one of the add ons, and my guess is that instead of the Prussian LS there should be a TR civilian 25 Faithful Service cross hanging there. That would at least make sense being in front of the foriegn awards but behind the others.

Nice bar by the way

Regards,

Mark

[Steve Russell]

Josef,

You raise a good point. It may be that this medal is also a Wtmbg Landwehr Service medal. I believe they used the same long service ribbon, or it could be the 12 year which would be a different color medal (silver). But these combinations did exist with the traditional Prussian blue long service ribbon. I have often been stumped by them. Here is a 5'er ribbon button device that shows the same long service combo. Steve

[attachmentid=57869]

[Mark M]

Steve

My point was that IF the bar has had two awards added to it, Which it does appear from the reverse, what two awards are they most likely to be from what is hanging on the bar? Not the foriegn awards as they are both pre 1914. Not the Wurtt LS, or in your theory the blue ribbon, as they were both discontinued by war's end. There isn't anything else left. Most likely combo is the HK and the blue ribbon being a TR 25 Faithful Service cross.

Mark

[Steve Russell]

I don't disagree with that possibility Mark, especially given the add on medals to the bar. Given the Hindenburg Cross, the 25 TR medal is indeed likely. The Landwehr possibility may also account for the Wrtmbrg ribbon. Perhaps since medals are missing and since the vet added what he added, the pre-TR long service cross was hung there incorrectly from his authorized awards. The good news for Josef though is that this bar appears to be legit--even with odd long service combinations. Steve

[Josef Rietveld]

@steve, if i read your posting correctly it means that i would have the possibility either to put a Faithfull service cross on position 4 OR a W?rttemberg Landwehr-service-medal/cross.

josef (Haynau)

[Mark M]

Steve

I don't disagree that the bar is legit. The problem with this style bar is that anybody, at anytime, can switch the awards around and no one is the wiser. Keep in mind also that the bar was purchased from ebay, land of the forbidden TR symbols, and was also purchased from a dealer. Who knows - he might have bought the bar with no awards on it and threw whatever he had in stock onto it to increase it's resale value!

Josef

If you are going to hang a Faithful Service cross it would have gone onto position #5, not position #4. A Wurtt LS would have hung on #4.

Mark

[Josef Rietveld]

Thanks Mark and Steve. If i put an LS-Decoration on the bar next to the prussian 15-Years-Cross, should it be then a w?rttemberg 15-years-Cross? or a w?rttemberg Landwehr-service-decoration. sorry for the question, but i never understood the german Dienstauszeichnungs-System completly

thanks in advance

josef

[saschaw]

Not easy to say at all.

I think you should remove the Prussian XV year and replace it with a Third Reich civil long service, might match very fine IMHO.

But, which W?rttemberg? He wasn't in service in 1897, and we cannot say for sure if he was whole WWI on the front. Nine year isn't enough, twelve year might work as well as fithteen. Reserve/Landwehr also possible, but I think less likely.

I think I would prefer a 15 year as more likely, but if you decide for a 12 year: I'll get one next week, and I don't really need it

[Dave Danner]

An observation/clarification:

#6 is red. The Milit?r-Jubil?umskreuz from 1908 was worn from a white ribbon with 5mm red stripes 3mm from each edge. The Jubil?ums-Erinnerungsmedaille f?r die bewaffnete Macht und die Gendarmerie, commonly referred to as the Signum Memoriae and issued in 1898, was the one which came on a red ribbon.

Members of foreign regiments of which the Austrian Kaiser was Inhaber did not receive the Milit?r-Jubil?umskreuz, receiving instead the medal in 8th place here, the Inhaberjubil?ums-Medaille f?r Ausl?nder.

The lack of a Centenary means one of two things: either he entered service just after the centennial but just before the 50th anniversary of Franz Josef, or the red ribbon represents another Austrian medal. The former is actually possible, since the Signum Memoriae was awarded in late 1898. So if he was called up that year, he might have missed out on the Centenary.

That would help in figuring out which W?rttemberg long service is appropriate.

Also, the lack of a W?rttemberg Milit?rverdienstmedaille makes me think the guy would have been too senior or too much "too the rear with the gear," to have gotten one of those, which was after all far more common than the W?rttemberg Verdienstkreuz.

As for whether it would have been a Landwehr or regular long-service, Franz Josef was Inhaber of FR 122. Is there any reason to believe that if this guy had been a regular joe who'd done his time and gone into the Landwehr, Franz Josef would also have been considered Inhaber of LIR 122 and the men of LIR 122 would have gotten the Inhaberjubil?ums-Medaille? I don't think so. As far as I know, Landwehr regiments didn't carry that type of tradition (though in July 1917, LIR 2 was given the title of Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment K?nig Wilhelm II. Nr. 2). So likely he was someone still in FR 122 in 1908, and thus a regular NCO, not a Landwehrmann.

Actually, as I think about and review notes, a Zahlmeister or Werkmeister or some other technical NCO seems likely. Lack of a Centenary means probably not enough years of service to be a Feldwebelleutnant. But I am not too knowledgeable on these higher NCO and warrant officer-type ranks. These are the ones most likely to receive the W?rttemberg Verdienstkreuz, though.

[Steve Russell]

To Mark and Dave. Pretty good sleuthing. Yes, as I think about the FJ connection to 122 Rgt, the Landwher seem sless likely now. And Mark, how right you are about the eBay 'hang whatever you have' on it.

One other thing that I wondered about with the red Ribbon award. Is it possible that it may be the Signum Laudis peacetime award? Steve

[Dave Danner]

To Mark and Dave. Pretty good sleuthing. Yes, as I think about the FJ connection to 122 Rgt, the Landwher seem sless likely now. And Mark, how right you are about the eBay 'hang whatever you have' on it.

One other thing that I wondered about with the red Ribbon award. Is it possible that it may be the Signum Laudis peacetime award? Steve

Signum Laudis is an officer's decoration. This bar says senior/technical NCO.

[Dave Danner]

Of course, it's remotely possible that it is a Bulgarian Merit Medal or Order of St. Alexander VI. Class. Both of those went to NCOs and were worn from a ribbon substantially the same color as the red ribbon of the Signum Memoriae. Technically, I think there were differences of shade in a lot of these, but German ribbon mounters often used what stock they had.

[Josef Rietveld]

IMHO the lack of the centenary-medal indicates that there was no Signum Memeoriae on the bar. So he enterd service after 1897. Generally it would be very uncommon for a german to receive the Signum Memoriae. The regulations say that it was given on the red ribbon for three years actice service in the AH-Army between 1848-1898. There were some germans who got it, but as the regulations say the had to be once in austrian service (sometimes german officers who enterd austrian service before the creation of the german empire 1871). In case of this bar i think we can exclude this possibility.

The only two possibilities that are logical is a bulgarian decoration as steve mentioned or an austrian Merit-Cross on red ribbo (peacetime). A classical decoration for higher NCOs in peace and wartime.

I add two pictures of bars. One shows an officers bar with the Inhaberjubil?ums-Medaille f?r Ausl?nder in Silver and a Franz-Josefs-Order (Knight). It was a question of courtoise that officers and NCOs of the foreign regiments whre the emperor was colonel-in-chief received additional austrian decorations besides the inhaberjubil?umsmedaille.

the other bar is from a german NCO and shows an golden merit-cross with Crown and a bulgarian alexander-order. both pictures come i borrowed from the SDA where i have the honour to be member aswell.

regards

josef

[Josef Rietveld]

the other bar

[Jacky]

Nice pictures, however a MVO with pink enamel??

I thought that the medals/decorations of this order had blue enamel??

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Dave Danner]

My inclination is Bulgarian. The lack of a Centenary means he probably wasn't very senior before the war started, so an Austrian Merit Cross on the statute ribbon is less likely. A wartime award would more likely have been on the war ribbon, as on the bar haynau shows. A St. Alexander would be on its red statute ribbon, and a Bulgarian merit medal could be given to almost any rank (it came in several grades) on the red ribbon, before or during the war.

[Josef Rietveld]

My inclination is Austrian.

The Inhaberjubil?ums-Medaille f?r Ausl?nder was issued 1908 to Officers and established NCO's. I don't know how much time it took in imperial germany to become an established NCO but before 1914 everything was a bit slower then after 1914. So i guess he must have been in service at least for five, six or seven years. So he entered the W?rttembergian Army beetween 1901 and 1903 or maybe a little bit earlier. 1908 he received the Inhaberjubil?umsmedaille and somewhen in the following years till 1914 his Colonel-in-Chief awarded him adittionally a merit cross in silver or gold with or without Crown.

This is just a speculation but it makes sense to me. In this case he must have a 15-Years-Service-Cross on his Bar and not a 12-years-medal

regards

josef

[Ulsterman]

My inclination is Bulgarian. The lack of a Centenary means he probably wasn't very senior before the war started, so an Austrian Merit Cross on the statute ribbon is less likely. A wartime award would more likely have been on the war ribbon, as on the bar haynau shows. A St. Alexander would be on its red statute ribbon, and a Bulgarian merit medal could be given to almost any rank (it came in several grades) on the red ribbon, before or during the war.

I agree-it is in place before the Austrian medal. A subtle distinction-but perhaps aesthetic.

Edited October 23, 2006 by Ulsterman

[Dave Danner]

My inclination is Austrian.

The Inhaberjubil?ums-Medaille f?r Ausl?nder was issued 1908 to Officers and established NCO's. I don't know how much time it took in imperial germany to become an established NCO but before 1914 everything was a bit slower then after 1914. So i guess he must have been in service at least for five, six or seven years. So he entered the W?rttembergian Army beetween 1901 and 1903 or maybe a little bit earlier. 1908 he received the Inhaberjubil?umsmedaille and somewhen in the following years till 1914 his Colonel-in-Chief awarded him adittionally a merit cross in silver or gold with or without Crown.

This is just a speculation but it makes sense to me. In this case he must have a 15-Years-Service-Cross on his Bar and not a 12-years-medal

regards

josef

Just as logical. So we may never know for certain.

Edited October 23, 2006 by Dave Danner