Buttonhole EK ribbons w/ medal bars?

[landsknechte]

When viewing ribbon bars where there is a "missing" EK that really should be there, there's always the possibility that the EK was worn on the buttonhole. Can anyone point to any evidence as to whether or not the same holds true for medal bars?

--Chris

[Guest Rick Research]

Medal bars would always have all awards-- that is why there WERE medal bars.

The occasional excepions for items like the Bavarian Military Max Joseph Order that were worn from the buttonhole as a form of "almost neck order" fashion statement do not apply to a "basic" award like the EK2.

I have NEVER seen any PERMANENT example of any EK2 NOT being worn on a medal bar, and would be hard pressed t come up with ribbon bars that way either.

Here is an example where an EK2 (1914 "white-black" ribbon) is not being worn on a medal bar, both being worn at the same time, separately.

[attachmentid=4836]

But this ancient 1866 and 1870 veteran's medal bar PREDATES World War One. Wearing it with his sole WW1 ribboned award (and notice that he holds the 1918 WOUND BADGE!!!) this way is simply a wartime temporary expedient. Pre-war and wartime awards have not been remounted together.

I would NOT expect WW1 awards to be Some On, Some Off. Never in the 1930s.

Oh? "Never" eh?

Well, this Gore Vidal impersonator in his pre-war (!) blue tunic is wearing his boring old most common pair-- EK2/Hindenburg Cross. What's that dangling from his buttonhole?

[attachmentid=4837]

His Prussian Gold Military Merit Cross-- being worn for emphasis in the buttonhole-- closest it could come to the neck-worn officers' equivalent the Pour le Merite. He would NEVER have worn his GMMC with HCX but stuck the EK2 in his buttonhole. "Fashion" didn't go that way.

Now I have seen a very, very few examples of RIBBON bars correctly worn with a buttonhole EK ribbon and no ribbon bar EK, but far, far more commonly BOTH ways of wearing an EK ribbon were used together, by wearers who then left off their RIBBON bar most of the time for an understated look.

[landsknechte]

Well, this Gore Vidal impersonator in his pre-war (!) blue tunic is wearing his boring old most common pair-- EK2/Hindenburg Cross. What's that dangling from his buttonhole?

"...and I shall call him Mini-Me."

[Ulsterman]

I have a large number of photos where the EK2 is worn in the button hole.

99.9% of these are war time and "look at my new medal"/promotion portraits. But that other .1% shows officers wearing the EK2 in the button hole while sporting significant (other states) combat orders. To me then, these indicate an odd 'highest medal in button hole" fashion statement in early Weimar.

In addition, there seem to be a small number of medal bars which are incomprehensible without a strong suspicion that an EK2/ribbon dangled from some sort of uniform button-hole. Notibly, a St. Henrys' medal/HKx furled ribbon pair which is undoubtedly original.

The "best medal" fashion statement as illustrated above seems to have continued into the early TR. I'd illustrate all the above statements happliy-but have a measly 29 mb left in my allowance-which means I could scan a bit of dental floss on my scanner.

[Guest Rick Research]

Saxon St Henry Medals, like Bavarian Bravery Medals, COULD be awarded without any previous "step" award, so those aren't ordinary/routine examples.

I don't know what you mean about having "29 mb left" when you can attach 50 KB of scans in any one posting now and as a full member (soon, soon, keep posting) you get much more than that.

If you are having some sort of technical difficulty posting scans here, just ask the Chairman and he can fix it.

Just awarded isn't the same as NOT mounting something in a bar. I agree there are MANY "look what I just got" photos:

[David Gregory]

Can anyone show an example of a Hohenzollern HHOX being worn in the button hole together with a normal EK2 et al medal bar, minus the HHOX of course?

I recently saw an image like this on German eBay, but cannot for the life of me imagine why I didn't buy it or at least add it to my watch list.

Would this be a fashion statement, an officialy recognised wear variant, emphasis of the HHOX or just a "look what I just got" statement?

Thanks in advance,

David

[Guest Rick Research]

That would have been correct for Fashion Statement wear, presuming that in the usual day to day ONLY the buttonhole HHOX was worn-- as here by Reichsheer Rittmeister Beeckmann

[attachmentid=4870]

In WW2, von Manstein often wore his HHOX buttonhole ribbon-- without any ribbon bar at all.

And here are a pair in "Mecklenburg rules" when regimental commander of FR90 to Prussian Freiherr von Massenbach:

[attachmentid=4871]

Did his HHOX bar REPLACE the earlier bar when he received that, or did he wear the "HHOX-less" bar at the same time, on a uniform with a buttonhole HHOX?

Without a photo portrait of him, dunno.

But again, these are HIGHEST award Fashion Statements, NOT omission of BASIC awards.

[Stogieman]

I'd agree with Rick, most of the photographs I've seen are "Just won" poses.... I have not seen many "formal" pictures of a medal bar with obvious WW1 awards and an EK2 in the button-hole.

[Ulsterman]

Well, I tried to post a button-hole snap last night nad it said : 'image too big, 29mb left'.

I can not imagine how somebody won a silver St. Henrys' medal, lived to 1934/35 to get an HKx and did not manage to get an EK2. Yet the bar is out there and it is presumably a real one.

soon, soon I shall have more space.... wub.gif

[Guest Rick Research]

Excellent! I awards photos and look forward to seing yours!!! :food-smiley-004:

I can imagine TWO scenarios for an odd highest single Bavarian/Saxon WW1 award--

1) a 1920 draft class 18 year old decorated for Octrober 1918 and no time for anything else (I have seen 1920-awarded St Henry Order-Knights who only had EK2s) or

2) this Bavarian enlisted man, November 1914 with an Iron Cross 2nd Class and never going to receive any other award. Some "compensation" for narrowly missing a Wooden Cross, but not much for both eyes and half a face.

[attachmentid=4904]

THIS is why sometimes we find a lone award usually found in a pair... but NOT three or whatever awards and NOT the basic EK2. Cripples and amputees rarely went on to have the sort of multi-decorated career that my one-legged staff Hauptmann Louis, encountered in documents here in various threads, could.

[Chris Boonzaier]

The second guy in post 2 looks like Karl Pilkington!!!!