Soviet Aleksandr Pavlovich Burdin

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[Ed_Haynes]

Andrey,

Glad to see you have taken on such a dedicated interest in this group. You certainly seem to think I have another fake?

Ed

Edited November 7, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Gerd Becker]

Andrei, can you please show an example for a snowflake?

Thanks

Gerd

Edited November 7, 2006 by Gerd Becker

[Mondvor]

Andrey,

Glad to see you have taken on such a dedicated interest in this group. You certainly seem to think I have another fake?

Ed

Sorry Ed, what group do you mean?

[Mondvor]

Andrei, can you please show an example for a snowflake?

Thanks

Gerd

Sure Gerd, here they are...

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[Ed_Haynes]

Sorry Ed, what group do you mean?

The one we are discussing here. I thought that was obvious.

[Gerd Becker]

Excellent, thank you very much. One last question, if you allow, the award with serialnumber 54 of Lavochkin is which one? Its really hard to read...

[Mondvor]

Excellent, thank you very much. One last question, if you allow, the award with serialnumber 54 of Lavochkin is which one? Its really hard to read...

Lavochkin's 54 is his Hero of Socialist Labor medal. Picture taken in a museum through the glass, sorry for the reflection

[Mondvor]

The one we are discussing here. I thought that was obvious.

I was distracted by your word "another". If we talk about this very group, why do you call it another? Were is the second one in this case?

In my early post I said that in my opinion medal and orderbook are original. The only fake elements that were added later are picture and the seal. Also I explained the reason why they might be added to original group.

[Gerd Becker]

Lavochkin's 54 is his Hero of Socialist Labor medal. Picture taken in a museum through the glass, sorry for the reflection

I forgive you

Once again, thanks

[Gerd Becker]

I am not sure, what happened to my reply from the 31st?

Ed, regardless, if the photo is original to the book or not ( i lean towards okay just for the record), this is the coolest Military Merit Medal for Afghanistan, which i have ever seen. Probably the coolest at all.

What might a MMM like this may be worth? Definately not the usual 30 Dollar, you?d pay for an unnumbered MMM with Doc. I would consider it at least at 5 times the amount, what do you think? That may sound stupid, but i have never seen an Afghanistan award for sale(otherwise it would be in my collection). Its obvious, that they are very sought after...

Thanks in advance

Gerd

[Riley1965]

Just found this topic. I think that picture and the seal have nothing to do with the document. In my opinion they were added later, most likely by German dealer. First of all, military person would not appear on ID picture in a civil clothes. He should be in uniform. Secondly, it is a little chance that he was awarded with this medal in Kremlin. Also most of the documents during this time were issued without any pictures.

Finally, my good friend from Germany told me funny story. Some German beginner collectors refused to buy documents if they are without photograph. They said like "there is a special area for the picture, so it should be there". Well, Germans strictly follow the rules, but Russians do not

So German dealers just added fake pictures and seals to many original documents to satisfy unexperienced collectors. I have more examples of those things, if you want I can display them.

Andrey,

As Rick, Ed and I all have documented groups with pictures in civilian or work out clothes, mine straight from our friend the researcher, I disagree with your opinion that the document pictures are tampered with. I have 100% confidence in my groups documents including Service record picture and feel the same about Ed's group.

Doc

[Mondvor]

Andrey,

As Rick, Ed and I all have documented groups with pictures in civilian or work out clothes, mine straight from our friend the researcher, I disagree with your opinion that the document pictures are tampered with. I have 100% confidence in my groups documents including Service record picture and feel the same about Ed's group.

Doc

Doc, I would not judge about groups that you mentioned, because I didn't see them. I'm talking only about this one MM group right now. To agree with me or not it is up to you. But many collectors have some kind of "denial syndrom". They don't want to believe that they have fakes.

I gave several arguments, I illustrated them with examples. And you just say that "I disagree with your opinion" because "I have 100% confidence in my groups documents including Service record picture and feel the same about Ed's group". It really sounds strange to me.

[NavyFCO]

Well, if Ed's not happy with the medal and doc, I have no problem taking it back and keeping it in my collection. As with everything I sell, it's always backed with a "100% lifetime guarantee of originality." It would be nice to actually have some proof that the photo is wrong rather than a hyphothesis though (e.g. the photo in his personnel file does not match that of the one in the book.)

I still have yet to hear anyone's reasoning as to how someone who got a book without photo would just HAPPEN to guess that it belonged to someone the right age and demenor (and quite possibly physical build) as the actual recipient, when the award could have been awarded to anyone. Luck perhaps?

Incidentally, I still think it's real, which is why I don't have a problem keeping it for myself.

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Well, if Ed's not happy with the medal and doc, I have no problem taking it back and keeping it in my collection. As with everything I sell, it's always backed with a "100% lifetime guarantee of originality." It would be nice to actually have some proof that the photo is wrong rather than a hyphothesis though (e.g. the photo in his personnel file does not match that of the one in the book.)

I still have yet to hear anyone's reasoning as to how someone who got a book without photo would just HAPPEN to guess that it belonged to someone the right age and demenor (and quite possibly physical build) as the actual recipient, when the award could have been awarded to anyone. Luck perhaps?

Incidentally, I still think it's real, which is why I don't have a problem keeping it for myself.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I have exactly 0% problem with it! You are not about to pry it away (except from my cold dead hands), as I see no problem with it, regardless. I see it as a research challenge!

It is so easy, too easy, to throw theories. It is harder to research. It may be even harder to admit we all have things to learn.

And thanks again for passing him on to his new home!!

Cheers,

Ed

[Riley1965]

Doc, I would not judge about groups that you mentioned, because I didn't see them. I'm talking only about this one MM group right now. To agree with me or not it is up to you. But many collectors have some kind of "denial syndrom". They don't want to believe that they have fakes.

I gave several arguments, I illustrated them with examples. And you just say that "I disagree with your opinion" because "I have 100% confidence in my groups documents including Service record picture and feel the same about Ed's group". It really sounds strange to me.

Andrey,

For me it's not a matter of "Denial Syndrom". To be blunt, I trust Ed and Dave's experience. I know that Neither of them are going to buy or sell a fake!!! Bottom line sometimes I agree with you and your experience and in this case I don't!!

Doc

[Mondvor]

Interesting. I spent some time looking for images of real Great Seals of Supreme Soviet Presidium, then I posted them to the forum to demonstrate that they are different from Burdin seal.

No one gave any comments to that. Why? No one is interested to look for a truth?

Doc wrote "I know that Neither of them are going to buy or sell a fake!!!". Did I say that the book is fake? No, I did not. I said that picture and a seal might not belong to this group. It is my opinion and I gave very clear examples why I think so. We all have to realize that it is impossible to be 100% sure that the item you have in your collection is not fake. Some people just unaware of it. Even big experts like Paul Mc Daniel could make mistakes, because some fakes are highly detailed professional pieces of art.

Dave wrote "I still have yet to hear anyone's reasoning as to how someone who got a book without photo would just HAPPEN to guess that it belonged to someone the right age and demenor (and quite possibly physical build) as the actual recipient, when the award could have been awarded to anyone. Luck perhaps?"

I think you should not be Sherlok Holmes to make "educated guess" about the recipient. First of all it is a man, not a woman. Secondly it should be a person not elder than 30. Who else can get MM in 1967? It is a chance that it's an award from WW II that finally found the recipient. But in this case the actual number of Prikaz of the unit and it's date should be written in the book. So most likely it is some young person from Red Army at the age of 18 - 30. This picture shows a guy that is about 22 - 25. Not a big deal to guess.

I'm really sorry that I started this discussion. Please let me know if you find Burdin's image from a personal file. I would be happy to confess that I'm wrong. BTW, in some of my previous posts I mentioned that the picture could be real. but the seal is fake. Noone payed attention, however

With respect to everyone,

Andrew.