Buy the piece, not the story

[Stogieman]

Check out this AWESOME PLM

Description

UP FOR BID IS ,A RARE POUR LE MERITE MEDAL.THE MEDAL WAS WAS GIVEN OUT TO ONLY TO A FEW WW1 GERMEN VETS,THAT MOVED TO THE USA,ATER THE WAR.THE MEDAL WAS GIVEN OUT BY THE GERMAN CONSULATE IN CLEVELAND OHIO.THE MEDAL IS OVER 60 YEAR OLD, AND IS IN GREAT SHAPE,THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM CHEAP KNOCK OFF MEDALS,THE WINNING BIDDER WILL HAVE 7 DAYS TO LOOK THE MEDAL OVER,IF NOT HAPPY WITH IT, I WILL BUY IT BACK,LESS SHIPPING COST,EMAIL ME FOR MORE IN FO.CHECK OUT MY OTHER STUFF FOR SALE, THANKS FOR LOOKING

http://cgi.ebay.com/POUR-LE-MERITE-BLUE-MA...1QQcmdZViewItem

[Stogieman]

Quality is STUNNING!

[Stogieman]

Yet, it simply MUST be real.....

[Stogieman]

Because..... The German Consulate gave out Germany's highest award to its' native sons with a card in EENGLEESH ;>)

[Riley1965]

I sent the seller an e-mail. Let's see what he has to say...

Best,

Doc

[Guest Darrell]

Because..... The German Consulate gave out Germany's highest award to its' native sons with a card in EENGLEESH ;>)

Nice Font. German Typewritten?

Edited November 17, 2006 by Darrell

[Wild Card]

[Daniel Cole]

Isn't that a S & L piece?

[Ralph A]

This ain't good english: "THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM CHEAP KNOCK OFF MEDALS..."

Must insert "THAR" after "THEM."

ok.

- the management

[Wild Card]

Nice Font. German Typewritten?

It is really quite easy to do on your computer. All that you need is a font called FETTE FRAKTUR.

[Riley1965]

Here's the reply to the e-mail I sent: "No, S**t"

That's all he had to say.

Doc

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Hardwick1963 thinks it's worth at least $256

[landsknechte]

Isn't that a S & L piece?

I think the technical term is S.O.L.

[Steve Russell]

While the story may be a stretch, the piece does look like an S&L 1957. Steve

[JimZ]

Because..... The German Consulate gave out Germany's highest award to its' native sons with a card in EENGLEESH ;>)

Hey Stogieman

Allow me to go on this one post but I can explain why the card would be issued in English.....and its very very simple. Its the start of the German dream later to be witnessed by the following dramatic chain events......

"The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short).

In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c." Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik emthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will make words like fotograf" 20 persent shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" by "z" and "w" by " v".

During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.

Ze drem vil finali kum tru. "

Jim

[saschaw]

Hey Stogieman

Allow me to go on this one post [...]

Oh, nice to see something like this here as many(!) German children and youngsters are yet using something that looks like this, namely a indeed strange mixture of wrong German and even wronger English, yet unable to use even one of those languages right, incapable to recognize what they actually want to say ... My apologizes for beeing offtopic, too.

Did I get it right that these are the pour le merits made by Steinhauer und L?ck in den 60s and 70s?

I have also one of those, even chipped from wearing, or chipped by someone who wanted it to look worn.

[Stogieman]

Here's an example of a post war (post 1945) S&L PLM w. Oakleaves

PS: in France, we call this mixture of French & English "du Franglais"

[Stogieman]

The somewhat rough edges and eagles, lettering, etc. do seem to match. He probably put it in the pocket of his jeans, washed it and driesd it a dozen times to take the gleam off the plating.

[Daniel Cole]

When I lived in Germany there was "neu Deutsch" which we words like "gefaxed" for faxed. Any time I made a gross grammatical error when speaking German, I default to calling it neu deutsch.

Here is my 1957er S & L Piece and Ernst Ju"ngers in the case (photo from Haus Wilfingen). (Haus Wilfingen never told me where his issue piece is)

Edited November 18, 2006 by Daniel Cole

[Daniel Cole]

Ju"ngers.

They both look like the one on ebay. IMO.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Why would this be a '57 S&L? There was no de-nazification required so I assume it was just another item to add to their catalogue? Another question, could anyone order from their catalogue? Medal collectors, dealers, etc.?

[Steve Russell]

Brian,

I don't know why the S&L included it other than there were still living PlM recipients in fair numbers in 1957 and the regulations for the Pour le Merite stipulated the state would award a crown for 50 years of holding the award. This continued even after the end of the Imperial age. Friedrich Christiansen received just such an S&L '57 piece with crown after qualifying for it in December of 1967.

Here is a pic that points out the 'quick check' points for an S&L '57 piece.

1 - Flat bottom eagle legs forming a straight line. Only the S&Ls have this. I have seen no Spanish fakes that have this flat bottom (what gives the Spanish fakes away every time is no holes or gaps around the legs. They are solid in the center and these constitute the largest numbers of fakes on eBay).

2 - No feet or claws that join the base of the arm. Just the straight edge that bluntly joins it.

3 - The connected 'UR' is very characteristic of an S&L. While some minor examples exist of this in other jeweler pieces, no S&L piece that I am aware of lacks the connected 'UR.'

4 - But the S&L 'L' in 'le' still lacks the 'hooked' top end of the letter. A hooked end, which would make it look like a '1' instead of an 'l,' is a sure sign of most fakes. Nearly every original PlM has a clean 'L' vice a hooked top.

That is why I think this piece is possible (although the story we may never know) and is an S&L 1957 piece. But, as PlM descendants certainly came to America (like your family), the story is not outright impossible. Hope this helps, Steve

[attachmentid=61339]

[Les]

I don't know why the S&L included it other than there were still living PlM recipients in fair numbers in 1957 and the regulations for the Pour le Merite stipulated the state would award a crown for 50 years of holding the award. This continued even after the end of the Imperial age. Friedrich Christiansen received just such an S&L '57 piece with crown after qualifying for it in December of 1967.

Here is a pic that points out the 'quick check' points for an S&L '57 piece.

1 - Flat bottom eagle legs forming a straight line. Only the S&Ls have this. I have seen no Spanish fakes that have this flat bottom (what gives the Spanish fakes away every time is no holes or gaps around the legs. They are solid in the center and these constitute the largest numbers of fakes on eBay).

2 - No feet or claws that join the base of the arm. Just the straight edge that bluntly joins it.

3 - The connected 'UR' is very characteristic of an S&L. While some minor examples exist of this in other jeweler pieces, no S&L piece that I am aware of lacks the connected 'UR.'

[attachmentid=61339]

During the postwar Allied occupation, Germans were forbidden to wear or display -any- Imperial or TR era medals. This was carried over through the early Federal period until the Germans changed the law(s) in 1957. At that time, TR era medals were "de-nazified" and many Imperial medals were also restruck.

S&L made copies are not rare, and probably many hundreds if not thousands were made. If you look at enough of these, there are qualitative differences among them suggesting a long production life, and resulting die wear over time.

Steve's comment about a "lack of feet" is not true of the earliest made S&L items. I have two in my collection that do in fact, have very small but obvious feet. They are quite delicate looking, and (later?) other S&L examples don't have them, suggesting the delicate nature of the die engraving of the feet on what might be the earliest examples, were worn or damaged through enough useage, that the feet were removed or "cleaned up".

The same type of wear appears to effect the eagle heads, and possibly other areas of the dies with delicate line work.

On original examples, some writers have commented on what they say is a decline in workmanship on finishing the heads of the eagles, etc. Some of the earlier silver gilt (Wagner-Fr) examples have eagle heads with clearly defined details and a "cowlick" of feathers at the back of the eagle's heads. This 'cowlick' is missing on the later war Wagner/Fr pieces. The 'cowlick' is delicate enough that over time, die wear may have affected that aspect of the eagle heads and "cleaned up" by the jeweler doing the hand finishing, or even the working die(s) being cleaned up. The S&L "PlMs" arguably, show indications of a similar process....long use resulting in die wear and subtle changes over time.

Steve, in comment #3, you mention "other jeweler pieces" in conjunction with the small number of original wartime PlMs with the connected "U=R"..... I haven't handled Berthold's gold example, and am reluctant to comment on it at length based on the use of photographs. Elsewhere on this forum, I've posted photos of a later war silver gilt example with connected letters. That one I -have- handled personally, and also have taken several high resolution photos of and compared it to other wartime examples. This example with the exception of the connected letters, has enough specific and identical features that it can be said to have been made from Wagner/Friedlander dies during the war. It is an "OEM" ("original equipment manufacturer")piece.

I've shared several photos of this example with Marshall ("Biro"), and if you have any doubts of my opionion of this piece (and by the way, Detlev Niemann sold this piece some time back with his COA attached), feel free to querry him for an independant opinion.

The "jeweler" term is a loaded one that carries connotations. The silver gilt one example referred to is a Wagner made example, and Wagner was of course a medals and order maker, as well as a "jeweler." Referring to an orignal manufacturer's piece as a "jeweler" example raises hackles in some quarters, the same was a referring to a "knock off" piece offered on ebay as a "jeweler copy" does.

Les

[Steve Russell]

As usual, a good run down Les. I concede the Wagner piece and the use of 'Jeweler' having emotion. My point was that the connected letters did appear in period pieces prior to the '57 S&Ls, albeit rarely. They are mostly seen on the '57s though and taken together with the other points noted, it is a decent way for people to do a 'quick spot' on a 1957 piece as opposed to what they might think is a fake. Thanks, Steve

[Wild Card]

It is really quite easy to do on your computer. All that you need is a font called FETTE FRAKTUR.