Red Eagle Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Have anyone some auction-results for a grandcross from the Order of the Guelphs (civil)?I don?t find them....Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eagle Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 Do you think it?s real original or a good fake?Made from gold, 53,5 g. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eagle Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Ed_Haynes Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Way WAY outside my interests, but I have always been curious. Is their any easy way to tell German Guelph badges from British Guelph badges? (Other than the hallmarks, of course.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eagle Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 more detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Red Eagle Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 Way WAY outside my interests, but I have always been curious. Is their any easy way to tell German Guelph badges from British Guelph badges? (Other than the hallmarks, of course.)I don?t know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eagle Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Hello Red Eagle,With the exception of the post script, I prepared the following in response to a question, which I can not find now, regarding prices of grand crosses. I hope that you don?t mind me posting it anyway.After searching several sources, the only numbers that I have managed to find for grand cross (sash) badges are as follows:A. Dec. 1989. Spink action. Civil grand cross (sash badge). $7.100.B. Feb. 1996. A. Thies private sale. Military grand cross (sash badge). $16,000.C. March 2004. C. Zeige action. Military grand cross (sash badge). $15,2oo.If I may, I would like to add a few observations. Please notice that I am speaking of sash badges here. Collar badges are often passed off as ?grand cross? badges. This is not to be construed as an error or misunderstanding because they are not the same and anyone who tries this is playing word games. I might note that some years ago, I had quite a go around with a well known German dealer who was trying to pass a large commander?s badge off as a grand cross badge. Several months later, he had it in his catalog as a, yep, commander?s badge. Also, if it?s not gold, it?s not good, period.There are good reasons for the rarity of these grand cross badges. Although awarded fairly generously for a while after the order?s establishment in 1815, once it moved back to Germany with Ernst August in 1837, awards slowed to a trickle. As a matter of fact, along with several other individual years, none were even awarded during the years from 1858 - 1861. Meanwhile, back in London, because of an ongoing family feud, all of the Royal Family?s insignia of the order was scrapped! Because this order and other Hannoverian decorations seem to be enjoying a growing appreciation among collectors at the moment, it is difficult to offer an accurate estimate on these pieces. After seeing the (cased) knight?s badge go for over $12,000 in Thies July auction, I have to believe that anything is possible. Along that line, I should point out that he has a rather spectacular grand cross star (lot #417) in his December auction.I hope that this information has been helpful.Best wishes,Wild Card P.S. The badge shown above is a very nice German made, likely by B?sch, commander?s badge. I hope that someone has not bought this thinking that it is a grand cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Way WAY outside my interests, but I have always been curious. Is their any easy way to tell German Guelph badges from British Guelph badges? (Other than the hallmarks, of course.)Hi Ed, Insignia of this order really run the gamut. When it comes to the stars, especially the commander?s stars, at times it seems that no two are alike.To answer your question, there is a rule of thumb which I have found to be 90% accurate. Dark blue background in the motto ring = German made. Light blue background in the motto ring = British made. And while we?re on the subject I should add that all 4th class (no, it?s not knight 2nd class) badges should be German made with the ?EA? cypher on the reverse.Take care, Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eagle Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) Thies wrote, german grandcrosses are smaller then english grandcrosses. German grandcrosses with swords are 120 x 60 mm (116 x 61 mm), commandercrosses with swords are 86 x 46 mm without swords are 73 x 44 mm.Nimmergut wrote: Grandcross 90 x 58 mm, Commandercross 68 x 44 mm.Do you really think this cross is a commandercross?Red Edited November 30, 2006 by Red Eagle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Do you really think this cross is a commandercross?RedYes, I do.Please bear with me on this. If I can get to the bank tomorrow, I will be able to post some pictures that will illustrate my reasoning - ?one picture is worth a thousand words?.. If not, I will explain it with words only. I should be able to get one version or the other up by late Saturday. Okay?Best wishes,Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eagle Posted December 1, 2006 Author Share Posted December 1, 2006 I have shown the pictures to Andreas Thies. He wrote:"Das St?ck sieht auf dem Photo sehr gut aus und ist meiner ansicht nach ohne zweifel ein Original, deutscher Fertigung, ca. 1840-1860. Die deutschen GK sind wesentlich kleiner als die britischen. Es handelt sich mit h?chster Wahrscheinlichkeit um ein Gro?kreuz."Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I have shown the pictures to Andreas Thies. He wrote:"Das St?ck sieht auf dem Photo sehr gut aus und ist meiner ansicht nach ohne zweifel ein Original, deutscher Fertigung, ca. 1840-1860. Die deutschen GK sind wesentlich kleiner als die britischen. Es handelt sich mit h?chster Wahrscheinlichkeit um ein Gro?kreuz."RedBahut accha. Is ke liye, mai aap ko shukriya bolte hai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) I have shown the pictures to Andreas Thies. He wrote:"Das St?ck sieht auf dem Photo sehr gut aus und ist meiner ansicht nach ohne zweifel ein Original, deutscher Fertigung, ca. 1840-1860. Die deutschen GK sind wesentlich kleiner als die britischen. Es handelt sich mit h?chster Wahrscheinlichkeit um ein Gro?kreuz."Red I agree completely with his analysis that this is a good German manufactured piece of 1840 - 1860; but still maintain that it is a commander's cross - a point that he does not fully address. More to follow. Edited December 1, 2006 by Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Well. I?m back and I must say that it has been an interesting journey. Starting a the beginning, I find that according to the History of the Orders of Knighthood of The British Empire by Sir Nicholas Harris Nicolas (London, 1842), it is stated that ?the grand cross badge shall be 3 inches wide, the commander?s badge shall be 1 3/4 inches wide and the knight?s badge 1 1/8 inches wide. In reality these dimensions, especially with regard to the commander?s badges, are approximate?. Note that last sentence - ?In reality these dimensions... are approximate?.Following up on this, I checked the 1816 printing of the statutes to find that the example on the appropriate plate measures 2 inches across - so much for that source (for now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 (edited) Plate from the 1816 statutes. Edited December 2, 2006 by Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 A civil badge of the era, 3? wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 (edited) Now, let?s jump ahead to the revisions of the 1841 statutes. Keep in mind that these would be the basis of the ?German? insignia. The plates now show the grand cross as being 3? across. I can not find anything in the text of these statutes or the revisions that dictate actual size; but then my German is not all that good. Here are the revised grand cross plates. Edited December 2, 2006 by Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Now we should take a look at the plates from the same source showing the commander?s insignia. In this case the crosses measure 2.25 inches across; but the key to our original question is shown in these two sets of plates. As in the case of many other Imperial German orders, the suspension ring on the grand cross is in the plane of the cross, while on the commander?s insignia, it is set at 90 degrees. This is why I feel that the piece under discussion is a commander?s badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Here is a German made commander?s cross. A military version, but the civil versions have the same suspension ring arrangement. Please, let?s not get into the collar badges!Regards,Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eagle Posted December 2, 2006 Author Share Posted December 2, 2006 Yes, in deed, the suspension ring is like a commanders cross. The diameters are from a grandcross. (expect Thies and Nimmergut). But the diameters are variable. A large commander?I will be search for a information about the recipient. I heared, that exist in his family the arward document. But I don?t know, if I can get this information.Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Hi Red Eagle,Yes, as I indicated in post #17, with this order the issue of insignia size has been a recognized problem for some time. If you would care to give me the recipients last name (you can use a PM if you prefer), I would be happy to check my lists of recipients for you.Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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