JimZ Posted December 5, 2006 Share Posted December 5, 2006 Obverse of 2nd class fake/copy/repro numbered 416[attachmentid=63742] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimZ Posted December 5, 2006 Author Share Posted December 5, 2006 Reverse of 2nd class fake/copy/repro numbered 416[attachmentid=63743] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted December 6, 2006 Share Posted December 6, 2006 Dear Jim,so the s/n. of that fake/copy/retro Motherland 2cl is 416 and not 1.604, as you have noted in a posting some weeks ago :http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=124114It would have been a very strange coincidence, because s/n. 1.604 is in my collection - nice, cute & genuine . Best regards Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimZ Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 Christian,Very sadly this is another fake piece with serial number 416. It is not the piece listed earlier as 1604. The common numbers are just a coincidence... after all there are only 0-9 as numbers to chose from even though the variations of these are infinite There are a few of these totally fake OSMs coming up and its going to be impossible to track them all. Fact is they will always crop up with a different serial number.But from their obverse low quality they are so far fairly easy to detect that I am not worried about them yet. The real concern comes about when the original 3rd class is dolled up to look like a 2nd or 1st Class especially when PMD's Historical Research is no longer comfortable to authenticate these.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Faked Motherlands - 2 cl & 1 clTo find out, if a Crab is made of scrap or if it is genuine and authentic from the mint, is rather easy:- overall impression & quality- details- quality of enamel - specially in the ring-section with the letters- size and form of the letters and the hammer & sickle (two very, very small variations dedected in my own collection!)- weight & size of the order- quality of silver wash and patina- quality of the engraving of the s/n. (rotating-tool-instrument)O.K., that's easy with a Motherland 3 cl, but what, if a Motherland 3 cl had been upgraded to a 2c or even 1 cl?1 cl is tricky - I only had once an obiviously authentic & genuine some years ago in Vienna in my hand, but first, I didn't had the USD 2.000,- and second I hadn't been completly shure about it. A few days later one of the Russian collectors in Vienna purchased the Crab 1 cl.Generally, the s/n. has to be undoctored and I think, it is still possible to dedect an faked s/n., if you take some very close looks at the field around the engraved numbers and at the style, how the s/n. is engraved.Another point is the colour and quality of the goldplating. I dedected two colour-variations at my Motherlands 2 cl:- lower s/n. have a colour more going to a kind of yellow-gold - s/n. 1604- higher s/n. (most of them unawarded) are more going to a kind of red-gold - s/n. 2213Years ago Art Bates from the "other" Soviet forum traded a Motherland 2 cl in about the same s/n.-range of my earlier (1604) Crab with the exact - more pale - goldplating as mine. Maybe the mint "improved" the colour of the goldplating later on .Another fact is, that the goldplating of the tips and ends of the two rockets is always done in a rather "sloppy" way. So - maybe -, if that work would be very, very exact and precise done, maybe the Crab might be a fake ...So, if it would be possible to fake the s/n. in a perfect way and to apply a perfect matching goldplating, than we might have a problem.I don't believe, that Motherland 3 cl with very low s/n., which would match to a 2 cl, will be converted and forged to Motherland 2 cl, because a researched and documented 3 cl from the mid 1970s will yield as much (or even more) money at the market, than an unawarded Motherland 2 cl - my opinion . So I think, that the forgers doctor the s/n. of ordinary Crabs 3 cl.The market value of very low numberd Motherland 3 cl brings some hope into the matter of authentication of Crabs 2 cl - my opinion .Best regardsChristian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimZ Posted December 22, 2006 Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 With only the most minimal differences between the common 3rd class and less common 1st and 2nd class, I think its a whole lot more complicated than that. If PMD thinks its wise to stay away from these and this is in a way his bread and butter, I'd be most wary of the 2nd and 1st classes. But at least yes....its the easiest thing to spot the "cheap" fakes of either classes..... and yet people buy them!Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Motherland 2cl & 1clWith only the most minimal differences between the common 3rd class and less common 1st and 2nd class, I think its a whole lot more complicated than that. JimDear Jim,as long, as you have genuine & authentic Motherlands 2cl in your collection to compare with an item in question, you might be at the "save side". A Motherland 2cl (genuine & authentic!) is a rather rare order. I assume, that less than 2.000 (most of them mint-fresh and unissued) might be - or had been - at the market. So the asked price range at the market for a 2cl of about USD 1.500,- is still rather moderate in relation the it's rarity. O.K., the matter of design - but I like the design of the "Crabs" . I still think, that you can make out a doctored s/n., if you take a very close look with special light from the lateral side at the engraving.You are right with the Motherland 1cl - genuine & authentic ones have been rarly at the market, no one has one in his private collection for comparison and I personally would not dare to buy one from a dealer or fellow collector - only from a state museum in Russia .Best regards Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
order_of_victory Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Christian,Have seen this thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7785...land&st=160 EnjoyOrder of Victory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Christian,Have seen this thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7785...land&st=160 EnjoyOrder of VictoryDear Order of Victory,many thanks for the information .I knew that thread and at least there is one (1) Motherland 1cl - appears unissued - in a private collection, which has a PMD-certificate.Best regardsChristian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lentiay Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Read, and save the money owing to knowledge. All is here very well painted, and a level of considered fakes - much more above. http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=983 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 <a href="http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=983" target="_blank"></a>Read, and save the money owing to knowledge. All is here very well painted, and a level of considered fakes - much more above. http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=983Dear Maxim,many thanks for that important link Some more links to Russian platforms:http://sammler.ru/index.php?act=SC&c=3http://auction-su.com/categories.php?paren...mp;show=subcatsBest regards Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now