Soviet Nevsky T 2 - s/n. 9534

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

some years ago I purchased for about USD 280,- that Nevsky T 2 in Vienna, which had been restored (in the CCCP) in a very professional way - new replaced top ray (12-o'clock-position) of the red star - and is collapsible, if you try. Due to the extraordinary low price, I bought the Nevsky T 2, despite the fact, that I had already one T 2 in my collection.

The s/n. is 9534 and the Nevsky should have been awarded in 1944. The order is still unresearched .

The restauration job has been done in a rather convincing way - perfect enamel! - and you can make out the restauration only at a second sight.

I will share the scans of the Nevsky in parts, because there are engravings of the laurel wreath at the surface of the basic part of the order, which can not be seen in fixed status!

Sorry for the bad scans, but I don't have a good digital camera - only the scanner of the computer :

Best regards

Christian

Nevsky T 2:

[Christian Zulus]

Nevsky T 2 - collapsed:

[Christian Zulus]

Nevsky T 2 - collapsed (top part of the order):

[Christian Zulus]

Nevsky T 2 - collapsed (rv.):

[Christian Zulus]

Nevsky T 2 - s/n.:

[Christian Zulus]

Today's market value?

Gentlemen,

do you have any idea, what the current market value of my restored Nevsky T 2 might be?

Many thanks in advance .

Best regards

Christian

[Ed_Haynes]

Nice example of a well-loved and carefully (if not artistically) repaired award. Thanks!

[NavyFCO]

collectrussia.com has one for sale for $1995.00 with enamel replaced on two arms. Kind of like a car, the "private party" value (if you can find one) is probably about 85% of that, and then considering that yours is missing the rivets and has replaced enamel, I'd say drops it even more. Thus, it's hard to say without a comparison, but I think it's worth around $1300-$1400, maybe higher to the right buyer, but to my mind the lack of rivets is a real downer on the value.

Just my thoughts on pricing.

Dave

[usairforce]

I think this is $1100

[Christian Zulus]

I think this is $1100

Dear "Usairforce",

USD 1100,- is the current price range of a Nevsky T 3, but not of a T 2.

Best regards

Christian

[order_of_victory]

Christian,

I think that is a fantastic item, I would love one like that

Order of Victory

[Christian Zulus]

... and then considering that yours is missing the rivets and has replaced enamel, I'd say drops it even more.

Dave

Dear Dave,

no all 3 rivets are on the order and the order is fixed and doesn't fall apart. You need some force to make the Nevsky collapsible

Many thanks for your hint, to have a closer look to Igor's Nevsky T 2, he just offers now .

It is very interesting, that Igor's Nevsky has almost the ident s/n. and obviously the same comrade engraved the s/n.

As far, as I can make out from Igor's scans, the enamel-repair-work doesn't look sooo perfect. My top ray of the red star had been removed, enamel had been hotbaked and then fixed again. So the quality of the enamel is as good, as original. But a part of the order had been removed ...

I assume, that my Nevsky T 2 might have the ident current market value, as Igor's:

USD 1700,- to USD 2000,-

In any case, a research might enhance the value signifcantly .

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Christian,

I think that is a fantastic item, I would love one like that

Order of Victory

Dear "Order of Victory",

many thanks

But as long, as I don't HAVE to sell parts of my collection, I won't sell awards .

It is important for me - and my (expensive) household-insurance - to know the market values of the items.

Best regards

Christian

[Bryan]

I assume, that my Nevsky T 2 might have the ident current market value, as Igor's:

USD 1700,- to USD 2000,-

It might just be my opinion Christian, but for me Igor's prices do not reflect the real maket value. I have never bought from him because he sells higher than many other dealers I know. I refuse to pay his asking prices even if he has good stuff. Just look the price of his yugoslavian awards.

He does have good stuff, but to my opinion they mostly have inflated prices. So I'd say for me that the market price is less than what you pretend.

[Ed_Haynes]

It might just be my opinion Christian, but for me Igor's prices do not reflect the real maket value. I have never bought from him because he sells higher than many other dealers I know. I refuse to pay his asking prices even if he has good stuff. Just look the price of his yugoslavian awards.

He does have good stuff, but to my opinion they mostly have inflated prices. So I'd say for me that the market price is less than what you pretend.

While Igor's prices may well be high for retail, they probably aren't bad guides for insurance value, which you'd want to be at or beyond the upper range of sane retail pricing.

[JimZ]

That explains your obsession with prices!!! I hate to think of ODMs in terms of commercial items and in terms of $$$. For insurace purposes I do have my database which values items based on current market replacement values of the pieces on an annual basis. But no insurance money paid to me in the event of their theft will ever make up for their loss!

Now as always the market value of any order depends on what the most agressive buyer would pay for it on a given day. So its hard to assess as such especially for the less common ODMs. As I see it a Nevsky that has been restored (no matter how flawless) and that comes to pieces (when it should not) has something fundamentally very wrong with it (albeit it being otherwise orginal) and would not appeal to me (personally) so in my book, it would not come anywhere close in value as one in original good condition.

I personally (and this is entirely subjective) would not pay the $1100 Usairforce suggested. Dave already values it at more than that. You value it at even more. So there you already have four different values, with the three non owners of the medal valuing it already significantly lower than one in good condition valued at circa $2000.

The truth is that on an auction day when only I am around in the auction house, you will get much less from my bid for your order than if Dave would also be present. And this is the truth with all collectors items. Of course you;d go back home with the medal as your reserve price would not have been met! Its just so subjective when the condition is not good to excellent.

What is however sure is:

a) It remains a less common piece that is still of good value

b) Research will always enhance its value but this depends on what story the reseach reveals

c) No matter the story told by research told, all Soviet ODMs but in particular the earlier pieces will always increase in value as years go by

As for pinning a real value on it..... good luck.... you'll only really know when you sell it or when one in identical condition with similar serial number gets sold!! And even then..... u'll never really know! But if you are in for a surprise, I hope it will be a good one!

Jim

[Christian Zulus]

Nevsky T 2 - present market realities

Dear Soviet,

dear Ed,

I just took the time and checked some of the major US-dealer sites for a Nevsky T 2 - without documents, unresearched and without PMD-certificate.

The result is, that Igor - USD 1995,- - has the best offer in terms of price/quality .

Dimitry Markov asks for a Nevsky T 2 with rather severe scratches and rather bad enamel USD 2750,- and Prof. Eugene Rabkin for a truley nice example - good enamel, well preserved gold and no scratches - USD 2850,-.

O.K., these prices are asked and our Russian friends in the USA sell their stocks .

And: Due to it's superior design, rarity, statutes, etc., a Nevsky is one of the most wanted Soviet orders among collectors, which also acclerates the price movement.

I don't think, that Igor is soooo expensive at the level of high-end awards - i.e. he offers a RBL T 2 with PMD-certificate, but restored - for under USD 1000,-! But for "cheaper" awards his price tags are rather high.

Coming back to YU-Awards at Igor's website: The prices of the more rarer and higher ranking awards are still in a moderate region, but I would not spend about USD 30,- for a YU-guards-badge or for a YU-borderguards-badge. Generally: In my modest opinion, the price tags for YU-Awards are far too low: About USD 100,- for a Soviet-made "Partizan Star" is a bargain .

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

... that comes to pieces (when it should not) has something fundamentally very wrong with it ...

... one in good condition valued at circa $2000.

Jim

Dear Jim,

many thanks for your highly interesting remarks about the market .

But there is a growing demand (from Russia) for high-end Soviet orders and we have a lot of "agressive" buyers. So I have no doubt (as long, as there is enough money in Moscow & St. Petersburg), that the price tags of high-end items will be for a long time on the move upwards.

May I explain:

- My Nevsky does not "come to pieces"! It is fixed with the 3 rivets and you need force to pull apart. I just wanted to show to the interested GMIC-members, how an old Nevsky looks inside and how repair works can be done in a rather professional way.

- A Nevsky T 2 in "good condition" costs today USD 2850,- at Prof. Eugene Rabkins website, who is known for very moderate price tags & good stuff.

If you have your source for getting good restored Nevsky's T 2 for well under USD 1000,- in Switzerland or Europe, then you might make good money with them and a profit of about 100 % .

Best regards

Christian

Edited January 5, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[NavyFCO]

It is fixed with the 3 rivets and you need force to pull apart.

We appreciate the chance to see under the Nevsky's star, that's for sure!

However, no matter how much force it takes to take it apart, it's still not as solid as one that doesn't come apart (which the ones on the dealer's websites do not do) and thus that greatly devalues it.

Since you are not selling it, you may ascribe to it any value that you would like. I personally believe that usairforce and I are close to the "reality" value of it as most of those Russian collectors who you believe might buy it at high prices want perfect or near perfect examples of pieces, which this Nevsky is not. (You may argue that point all you want, but I have a bit of experience selling "less than perfect" awards in this current market, and it is difficult to realize prices even remotely close to what you'll see on dealer's websites.)

Dave

[JimZ]

Christian,

A Nevsky should not come apart!!! If it does to me it is a "broken" Nevksy!

Whereas some may be satisfied with a "broken" or damaged Nevsky with restored enamel in their collection I am not and that is why I will not attach a high value to it. Its as easy as that! I have turned down many orders and medals on account of their condition (unless the price was really good and that was only on an exceptional basis). Its not about having sources in Switzerland or anywhere else in the world! Its about what I asa a collector am ready to settle for and what I see as value for my money! Therefore valuation remains subjective especially when condition is not good to excellent and the debate can indeed be endless! Again, the proof of the pudding will only be in the eating!

Also...because a dealer puts a price tag on an items does not mean he is right about the value! Even if three or four delears have a similar price tag on similar items does not necessarily mean that it is the correct market value.

But enough about discussing values....that's the part of collecting I hate most as that is really not what I am about! Instead let me echo Dave's comment that it was tuly interesting to see the underside of the Nevsky that we would have otherwise not have had the opportunity to see. That was indeed truly educational and thanks for the sharing the pics!!!!

Jim

[Christian Zulus]

My "broken" Nevsky

Dear Dave,

dear Jim

many thanks for your always appreciated remarks .

Years ago, Dave presented a collapsible "Motherland 3cl" to us, as far, as I can rember. What happened to that piece?

However, no matter how much force it takes to take it apart, it's still not as solid as one that doesn't come apart (which the ones on the dealer's websites do not do) and thus that greatly devalues it.

Gentlemen, if that is the problem, I can go to my juweller and he will hit carefully at the 3 rivets and the "broken" Nevsky will be fixed forever .

At the moment two other "less than perfect" Nevsky's T 2 in a rather similar condition to mine one are offered at the market:

- USD 1995,- at Igor's website

- USD 2750,- at Dimitry's website

Let us wait for a few weeks and look, if they sell - the market tell the truth. As long, as the main US-dealers sell their stocks, their prices should reflect the situation at the market. That is how capitalism works, I guess .

Right now I will take my Nevsky T 2 with EUR 1600,- into the insurance list.

Jim, you are right: The price situation at the market now is horrible and it is for normal people hardly possible to buy some really nice items - except you want to spend a fortune . But on the other side, collectors who bought in the mid-1990s the right stuff, made a profit of at least 400 % (some of us made a even a profit of much more than 1000 %) - that is more than you could have ever made at the stock exchange .

I for my part will investment now my money step for step into the research of my modest collection - also a good investment and interesting for the collectors community - and for historians. Dave showed us the way - he was the first, who published the research results of his great collection years ago at his website .

Best regards

Christian

[NavyFCO]

Years ago, Dave presented a collapsible "Motherland 3cl" to us, as far, as I can rember. What happened to that piece?

Gentlemen, if that is the problem, I can go to my juweller and he will hit carefully at the 3 rivets and the "broken" Nevsky will be fixed forever

Yes, I did. However, one forgets that the Homeland 3rd is able to come apart with the assistance of a simple tool. In the same way, the nut can go back onto the award without any defect to the award. That was the explaination for that. However, it is impossible to have someone restore the rivets on the Nevsky without having them be noticeably altered, especially with the large scratch that is on the top left rivet. Once the rivets are altered, the piece is forever "repaired".

Let us wait for a few weeks and look, if they sell - the market tell the truth. As long, as the main US-dealers sell their stocks, their prices should reflect the situation at the market. That is how capitalism works, I guess

Does the price a vehicle sells at the dealership reflect the actual "value" of the vehicle? Or is it the value of the vehicle sold between two private parties? Or is it the wholesale value on a trade in vehicle? Which one accurately reflects the market?

In much the same way in the Soviet world, one particular dealer sells OGPW1s for over $500 to collectors. Another dealer sells them for $400 to collectors. I have sold them to a dealer for $300. Which is the accurate reflection of the market? What I can sell them for? What the highest price dealer can sell them for? Or what the lower priced dealer can sell them for?

I do not know if there is a good answer to that question, in all honesty. However, I would say that the market realities are somewhere in the middle of what the dealer can sell an item for and what a private person can sell an item for. Realistically, it is rare that a private person will be able to sell an award for the same price that a major dealer is asking (from personal experience.) It is because the dealer has more contacts and a larger base to sell to than the private collector. Thus, if Igor could sell yours for the same price as his (which he would not do as the conditions are considerably different) then yours on the collector-to-collector market is probably worth about 85% of that price. We are now back at my original post in this thread about the value of the piece.

I realize that you can insure it for whatever you want to. Insure it for 10,000,000 euros/pounds/rubles/shrunken heads/whatever if you'd like. However, you asked for the value of the piece, and several posters gave you their opinion as far as the value. You, however, disagreed with their opinions and decided on the value yourself. If you have a value set in your mind already, please don't waste the time of the members on this forum by asking their opinion and then casting their opinions aside because they do not agree with your own.

Just my two cents.

Dave

Edited January 5, 2007 by NavyFCO

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Dave,

I feel really sorry for wasting your precious time with such a worthless and unrepairable piece of scratch . I hope, that my dealer will take my "broken" Quasi-Nevsky back for the initial USD 280,- .

If you have a value set in your mind already, please don't waste the time of the members on this forum by asking their opinion and then casting their opinions aside because they do not agree with your own.

Sorry Dave, your remark is not correct, as everyone can read out of the discussion in the thread: I set the (insurance) value of my disgraceful piece of scratch AFTER the discussion in the forum and AFTER my research at the dealers websites - and not before. I presented reasonable arguments after the discussion, why I assume a value of EUR 1600,- for the insurance list.

If a collectible is stolen, the insurance company refunds the actual price of the piece, which is asked from the well known dealers at the market, and/or will orient at the result-lists of the well known auction houses.

I believe, if the "broken" Quasi-Nevsky would be in your proud collection, you would write a rather similar value into your insurance list .

Best regards

Christian

[JimZ]

This orders stands for someone who fought for his motherland, or maybe even died for it... research may and will reveal....

As a general comment lets all (including myself) just remember this at all times and treat our beloved Orders and Medals with the full respect that is due to them in keeping them as well as in discussing them ...... even when these are the very source of argument or disagreement.

They are not just coins or bits of precious metal. These are treasures indeed and to some, the only bit of glory and honour remaining from a now defunct and failed regime.

Jim

[JimZ]

Double post removed. Apologies.

Edited January 6, 2007 by jimzammit