SEHO Knight's Cross Question

[MJC]

Two questions that I hope aren't too simple.

~The Type II reverse has, for lack of a better term, a line of green shamrocks within a blue enameled circle. Various examples show the line in the "10 and 2" position while others show more of a "9 and 3" position. Are these acceptable variations? Perhaps jewelers variations?

~Are the true Type II award dates from 1864-1918 or 1864-1938? I have seen both.

Sorry for the lack of pictures that might better illustrate my questions and thanks in advance.

Mike

[Dave Danner]

Two questions that I hope aren't too simple.

~The Type II reverse has, for lack of a better term, a line of green shamrocks within a blue enameled circle. Various examples show the line in the "10 and 2" position while others show more of a "9 and 3" position. Are these acceptable variations? Perhaps jewelers variations?

~Are the true Type II award dates from 1864-1918 or 1864-1938? I have seen both.

Sorry for the lack of pictures that might better illustrate my questions and thanks in advance.

Mike

1864-1918/1935 might be more accurate.

As an official state order, the SEHO ceased with the abdication of the dukes of the three Saxon duchies in 1918. However, the former rulers generally assumed the right to issue house orders as private decorations after that date. Private awards were banned by a law enacted on May 15, 1934, with the law coming into effect on November 15, 1935.

[Rod]

I have a SEHO knight's cross with swords.... second class, marked 925 silver, real gold center and stated as "unissued". Maker marked EE (E. Eberhardt from Altenburg).

Would someone speculate if this is a replacement item (post 1918) or one that was issued up into

1934 by the "Duke"?

I would lean more towards a replacement item because of the swords.

Thanks,

Rod

[Schießplatzmeister]

Dear Michael:

Regarding the configuration of the SEHO reverse center, the band of rue arcs from the 10:00 o'clock position to the 4:00 o'clock position in the center (I am sure that this is what you meant to write). A badge with the band in another position has merely been knocked about. These pieces are separately pinned in the center and can easily move if handled roughly.

As mentioned above, no shamrocks here! The leaves represent rue leaves which were (and still are by some I guess) thought to have powerful medicinal properties during the middle-ages.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Schießplatzmeister]

I have a SEHO knight's cross with swords.... second class, marked 925 silver, real gold center and stated as "unissued". Maker marked EE (E. Eberhardt from Altenburg).

Would someone speculate if this is a replacement item (post 1918) or one that was issued up into

1934 by the "Duke"?

I would lean more towards a replacement item because of the swords.

Thanks,

Rod

Dear Rod:

An interesting question that you pose. Could you post a photo of your piece? Do the swords have "bow-tie" hilts or "S" hilts. I have heard a variety of theories regarding the reason for the difference and your piece could spark some interesting discussion. By the way, "swords-on-ring" for these badges would denote a private award by the Duke in the 1930's (he was an NSDAP sympathizer).

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Guest Rick Research]

The Nazi Duke was from Coburg-- and a cousin of the British royal family: lucky for his former subjects since it made them part of the Western Zone rather than the wrong side of the Iron Curtain for all those bad decades.

Neither of the other two "Ernestines" gave out their Orders after the war that I've ever heard about, though I'm sure they kept up dynastic wear amongst themselves.

[Rod]

Hello Schie....

Here is the dealer's pic (Saxonia Militaria).

It has the "S" hilt which I understand is sometimes call the "French" ones.

Actually the item is still in transit to me and possibly should arrive today.

I am told it still has all the original silver frosting.

Hard to believe this could have been in inventory for all these years, but I guess stranger things have happened.

What do you think?

Rod

[Rod]

Well the mailman just arrived!!!!

I am in shock!!!!! What a beautiful medal!!!!

Now keep in mind I am a really new guy to all of this. BUT... I think this is the first class award in gilt silver ... not the second class in plain silver. I see lots and lots of gold glit with some "blackening" (tarnish??) that seems to shine like silver would.

I think it has a three piece center and absolutely NO enamel chipping!!! The gold center looks great!!! The 5 1/2" X 1 1/2" ribbon sure looks original to me. The handles of the swords are plain on the reverse.

No damage on the piece at all!!!! I would certainly agree with the "unissued" part.

To say that I am pleased is an understatement.

Saxon Militaria still has one of equal quality but with out the swords for about $600. Mine with the swords was $800. Compared to other SHEOs I have seen advertised those are excellent prices.

Sorry I can't provide my own pics. I have to get a decent camera.... sigh

I hope the above can help someone speculate about the vintage of mine ... allll mine

Rod

[Guest Rick Research]

It depends on what is meant by "inventory."

These were, of course, issued out by the three Duchies' Orders chanceries when awarded. I'm sure there were ???? "left over" when the world war ended.

In which case, one would have to wonder how and when and where that property came onto the market.

More likely in my opinion is that this incoming piece sat almost airtight in its case, never worn by the recipient, all this time-- and somebody has just recently shucked the case and made two sales individually. Maybe the hinge was squished and they chucked it as "worthless." People do the weirdest things.

All three Duchies "required" the return of their House Orders after a recipient's death so there should theoretically always have been a supply of mixed new unissued and old returned pieces available BUT

I've got the award rolls for all three Duchies during the war and even when a recipient's death is noted (as by Altenburg) there is almost never a notation on an Order actually being returned. Somebody in Altenburg DID make such entries as there were for returns into the 1920s, but I've seen none for Coburg nor noticed any for Meiningen which is my next transcription task.

It's also possible that the manufacturer kept a supply available for replacements which were almost always the recipients' problem to come up with by buying their own.

I'd be very interested when it arrives to know where the maker mark IS. I've only encountered WW1 Knights' grades tightly mounted on medal bars and have never noted a maker mark.

[Rod]

Hi Rick

The maker's mark (E E) (along with 925) is located on the left inside rim of the bottom cross arm which is drawn into two points (left and right).

Hope I have not over complicated my description.

Rod

[Schießplatzmeister]

Dear Rod:

Congratulations on obtaining a very nice piece! I can't tell from the photo if the body of the piece is made of silver (2nd Class) or gilded silver (1st Class). Remember that silver sometimes has a "straw" coloured patinae and that the gilding on some pieces is very light. So, the answer is not always obvious. I have not seen another piece that was marked before (very interesting).

"925" is not common as a pre-1918 German content mark. Since the center is gold, this is most likely an early WWI piece. These badges were also made by Order jewelers in States other than Saxon States and in Countries other than Germany.

You are correct, the "S" hilt swords are called "French" style sometimes. The other type of hilt is commonly referred to as the "Roman" type. A collector friend once told me that he thought that the "French"-hilted pieces were Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha awards. I have found no compelling reason to make rhyme or reason of the sword-hilt types one way or the other at this point. So, if anyone has any wisdom to share, please reveal it now! If the E. E. denotes Hofjuwelier Eberhardt in Altenburg, then obviously, my friend's theory was not correct!

The badges of this Order are truly beautiful! Congratulations regarding a nice acquisition!

Best regards,

"SPM"

[VtwinVince]

Yikes, after looking through the Saxonia website, I'm having a hard time believing any of their aviation badges are genuine.

[Guest Rick Research]

Here's a Knight 2nd X Roman hilts type awarded from Altenburg to an officer in Res Inf Rgt 264 or 266:

[Yankee]

Dear Rod:

Congratulations on obtaining a very nice piece! I can't tell from the photo if the body of the piece is made of silver (2nd Class) or gilded silver (1st Class). Remember that silver sometimes has a "straw" coloured patinae and that the gilding on some pieces is very light. So, the answer is not always obvious. I have not seen another piece that was marked before (very interesting).

"925" is not common as a pre-1918 German content mark. Since the center is gold, this is most likely an early WWI piece. These badges were also made by Order jewelers in States other than Saxon States and in Countries other than Germany.

You are correct, the "S" hilt swords are called "French" style sometimes. The other type of hilt is commonly referred to as the "Roman" type. A collector friend once told me that he thought that the "French"-hilted pieces were Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha awards. I have found no compelling reason to make rhyme or reason of the sword-hilt types one way or the other at this point. So, if anyone has any wisdom to share, please reveal it now! If the E. E. denotes Hofjuwelier Eberhardt in Altenburg, then obviously, my friend's theory was not correct!

The badges of this Order are truly beautiful! Congratulations regarding a nice acquisition!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi Schie

Do you know if the SEHO Knight's were also made by Rothe ? I orginally thought all SEHO's were of German make and some early ones made in France. I have a knight in what seems to be a Rothe case. Thought case was wrong but now not so sure. Lions are rather small, however well detailed. Any info would be appreciated

Sincerely

Yankee

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Yankee:

An excellent question! Good news! Although I don't know how many pieces Rothe made, I do know that they made them.

From the collection/auction of my dearly departed friend Eric Ludvigsen is an example that will make you a believer. Please refer to Thies Auction No. 26 April 22, 2005 lot 1239 (page 137). It is a silver-gilt Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach Order of the White Falcon knight's badge (reverse side w/ trophy of arms) in a typical Austrian case (rounded bottom) by Rothe & Neffe, Wien. The piece is marked by Rothe & Neffe and has a post-1864 silver mark. Although not an SEHO, it shows the wide variety of pieces that they made. Does your badge have any markings (suspension ring area?).

I now refer to another example from Eric's collection. See Thies Auction No. 28 December 10, 2005 lot 403 (page 236). Pictured is a SEHO Commander's badge in silver-gilt with gold medallions. Thies describes this piece as an Austrian or French manufactured piece from 1880-1900. The bust on the obverse medallion is a separate piece.

Although Rothe made a lot of terrible quality copies after 1918, their older workmanship was always superb. I do not think that it would be an exageration to say that they probably manufactured just about every major German States Order prior to 1918. These pieces, although technically "copies" are usually of superb quality and much more difficult to find than standard-issue German-made pieces. They are under-appreciated currently.

I hope that this helps more than it confuses!

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hi Rick

The maker's mark (E E) (along with 925) is located on the left inside rim of the bottom cross arm which is drawn into two points (left and right).

Hope I have not over complicated my description.

Rod

Dear Rod:

Please see the listing for the Red Eagle Order 1st Class star. There is a photo of an "FR" mark in a rhombus that is a post-1918 Rothe mark. Does your "EE" mark look anything like this?

Thanks,

"SPM"

[Rod]

Dear Rod:

Please see the listing for the Red Eagle Order 1st Class star. There is a photo of an "FR" mark in a rhombus that is a post-1918 Rothe mark. Does your "EE" mark look anything like this?

Thanks,

"SPM"

Schie...

Nope ... no comparison between the two. Mine looks engraved as opposed to a punch.

EE . 925

Rod

[Yankee]

Hello Yankee:

An excellent question! Good news! Although I don't know how many pieces Rothe made, I do know that they made them.

From the collection/auction of my dearly departed friend Eric Ludvigsen is an example that will make you a believer. Please refer to Thies Auction No. 26 April 22, 2005 lot 1239 (page 137). It is a silver-gilt Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach Order of the White Falcon knight's badge (reverse side w/ trophy of arms) in a typical Austrian case (rounded bottom) by Rothe & Neffe, Wien. The piece is marked by Rothe & Neffe and has a post-1864 silver mark. Although not an SEHO, it shows the wide variety of pieces that they made. Does your badge have any markings (suspension ring area?).

I now refer to another example from Eric's collection. See Thies Auction No. 28 December 10, 2005 lot 403 (page 236). Pictured is a SEHO Commander's badge in silver-gilt with gold medallions. Thies describes this piece as an Austrian or French manufactured piece from 1880-1900. The bust on the obverse medallion is a separate piece.

Although Rothe made a lot of terrible quality copies after 1918, their older workmanship was always superb. I do not think that it would be an exageration to say that they probably manufactured just about every major German States Order prior to 1918. These pieces, although technically "copies" are usually of superb quality and much more difficult to find than standard-issue German-made pieces. They are under-appreciated currently.

I hope that this helps more than it confuses!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi Schie

Thanks for pointing out their participation in the German State market & making me aware of the fact. Usually when I hear the word Rothe on foreign made orders I immediately think of collectors copy and cringe. Exception are the Grand Duchy of Tuscany whose family in exile had commissioned Rothe and they are as well made as the Italian examples. The badge has no markings, case also none. Usually marked with Rothe & Neffe. Very early cases 1860 only Rothe without Neffe (his nephew) I'll send out some scans. I think the case is by Rothe because of the color, shape & texture. I Took a look at the SEHO Commander and find it interesting, certainly a foreign made one. The Lions between the arms are too small, they do not connect to both arms. It seems possibly the manufacturer had ran out of Lions for commander size and substituted them for knight size Lions explains why they do not reach fully across. I'm no expert on this order, maybe it is a German made one and thrown into an Austrian case that just happens to fit. I'm hoping you can tell me if it is of typical german workmanship or possibly be a Rothe made example. The centers are well executed in gold, most likely before WWl. Thanks

Sincerely

Yankee

[Rod]

Excuse me for going on and on .........

I have very carefully examed my cross under 10X. The quality is absolutely top drawer. I am sure the center is real gold which I think would safely date it to early WW1.

Maybe my old eyes are failing, but when I look at the cross is subdued light it is definitely silver. Under strong light, it seems to reflect more of a gold color. Under magnification I can see strong hints of gold color which I think is silver tarnish. In any event I am very pleased.

In my mind the maker continues to be Eberhardt of Altenburg.

Thanks so much to one and all for their help and great information!!

Rod

[Yankee]

Rothe ????????????

[Yankee]

[Yankee]

[Yankee]

[Yankee]

[MJC]

Wow, I really like how this thread has expanded, although it makes my initial thoughts seem pedestrain. Basically, I initiated this thread to ask for comment on the SEHOs on the eMedals site in terms of quality of manufacture, period of manufacture, and suitability of price. I'm not certain the last question is appropriate in this forum, so please strike if not. I am of the mind to acquire one so comments are appreciated.

Rod, great piece! Schie, yes, 10 and 4, thanks. Keep Posting