Organisational Badges Kyffhäuser-Ehrenzeichen II. Klasse

[John Burchell]

Here is one of the award documents (this one dated 1936) which I have that were awarded to the same man over a period of years from WW1 & WW2, as a member of the DRKB. I would like to know what this award looks like, as I am trying to complete the missing awards that match the appropriate documents. Can anyone help-out by posting a picture of this particular award, please?

Thanks,

John

Edited March 2, 2007 by John Burchell

[Jef]

Here is one of the award documents (this one dated 1936) which I have that were awarded to the same man over a period of years from WW1 & WW2, as a member of the DRKB. I would like to know what this award looks like, as I am trying to complete the missing awards that match the appropriate documents. Can anyone help-out by posting a picture of this particular award, please?

Thanks,

John

Hello John,

I think this is the award, but I'm not sure. Don't worry if I'm wrong, specialists will correct me. If I'm wrong, my apologizes.

Kind regards,

Jef

[BURGERHAUS]

John and Jeff Would this miniature possibly have a relationship? Cheers Robert

[Kev in Deva]

Hello John,

I think this is the award, but I'm not sure. Don't worry if I'm wrong, specialists will correct me. If I'm wrong, my apologizes.

Kind regards,

Jef

.

Hallo Jeff,

That is the II Class award, this is what the Ist Class looked like:

Kevin in Deva.

Edited March 3, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

This link will take you to a picture of the monument depicted on the badge:

http://www.old-picture.com/europe/Kyffhaus...ent-Germany.htm there is more information available on line.

Kevin in Deva

[John Burchell]

Thanks for your feedback, Jef and Kev. If that is, indeed, the award that goes with the document, then I'll start looking for one of those 2nd class medals.

Not sure, Robert, what the significance of the stickpin may be, but it surely has a "Kyffhauser" connection since it does depict the monument.

I assume that the monument still stands and can be visited. Curious to know if any members have been there?

Regards,

John

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo John,

if my memory serves me correct (and please feel free to post a correction, if I am mistaken) the Kyffhauser Bund were originaly a quasi-military shooting Club, set up to promote the skill of musketry amongst Prussia and the German States in the 1870s, (I believe it still exsists in some form even today.) Members were allowed to join circa 16 years of age, and nearly every village, town and Cities had clubs set up.

During WW1 this might also explain the better than avarage skill at musketry found amongst the German Forces compared to the average British, French, Belgian Troops etc...etc...

Your small pin probably denotes memebership to the Kyffhauser Bund Association. As I understand it with regards the two medals pictured above, these are I believe for Association membership, and not for military service.

The medal pictured under was given / bought by returned veterans of the Kyffhauser Bund to denote their Service and was one of the many unofficial medals that was available seeing there was no official medal in Germany for service in WW1 until the Hindenberg Crosses were issued under application in 1934.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Nick]

This being a 1936 DRKB Award I am almost certain it would have had a swastika on the decoration. I am not sure we have quite got to the bottom of this yet.

[Jef]

Thank you John, Burgerhaus and Kevin for your answers, confirmation and futher information.

Kev, uptill now I must admit I didn't know of the existence of a I. klasse Ehrenzeichen. thank you again.

Best regards,

Jef

[Kev in Deva]

This being a 1936 DRKB Award I am almost certain it would have had a swastika on the decoration. I am not sure we have quite got to the bottom of this yet.

An interesting point Chris, but, remember the Hindenberg Crosses carried no swastikas either. Kevin in Deva.

[Scowen]

I see the Certificate names the area as Dortmund, anyone know which state this was in? I've just dug out my my Niemann's catalogue to see if he shows it with a Swaz & he names the ones shown as being awarded to members of the Prussian State. There are different designs shown for each State......... Was Dortmund in Prussia? If not then I doubt that the one shown is the version that John is seeking.

Cheers

Don

[Peter J]

I'm not quite clear about this topic, but I'll give it a try.

The two first crosses presented are from Preussischer Landeskriegerverband (Preussian War Veteran Organisation) and I don't believe this type is the one cited on the document. As stated, there were a couple of other decorations of similar design i.g. the war veteran organisations of Anhalt, L?beck, Hessen etc. I assume the Deutscher Reichkriegerbund "Kyffh?user" (Deutsche Landeskriegerverbande) was some sort of umbrella for the individual states, perhaps even on state level. The oval medal is referred to as Kriegsdenkm?ntze 1914-18.

Something happened in the early 30's and the wearing of decorations from the various veteran organisations was banned. I'm interested to know the full story about this event, because there are at least three organisations that had the swastika incortorated in their medals i.e. Reichtreuebund ehemaliger Berufsoldaten (RTB), Deutscher Reichkriegerbund Kyffh?user (DRKB) and NS-Reichkriegerbund (NSRKB). The latter seems more probable as the "end product", but the late date on the document (1936) indicates the DRKB was still in existence. Any thoughts?

KR

Peter

[Kev in Deva]

I'm not quite clear about this topic, but I'll give it a try.

Something happened in the early 30's and the wearing of decorations from the various veteran organisations was banned. I'm interested to know the full story about this event, because there are at least three organisations that had the swastika incortorated in their medals i.e. Reichtreuebund ehemaliger Berufsoldaten (RTB), Deutscher Reichkriegerbund Kyffh?user (DRKB) and NS-Reichkriegerbund (NSRKB). The latter seems more probable as the "end product", but the late date on the document (1936) indicates the DRKB was still in existence. Any thoughts?

KR

Peter

Hi Peter

what happened was the Hindenberg Crosses were implimented to wear as the only official German WW1 Commemoration medal, the regulation's stated that all previous unofficial Medals such as the following:

Kyffh?use Bund Medal,

The German Legion of Honour,

The Marine Korps Kreuz,

The Argonnen Cross 1914-1918,

Champagne 1914-1918,

Somme 1914-1918,

Verdun 1914-1918,

Deutsche (Hamburg) Feld-Ehren-Zeichen

And many other unofficial veteran orientated Crosses and Medals,

And some of the unofficial Freikorp era items as well.

Were to be removed from any medal bars of serving Officers and men in the German military, German Civil Service etc.. they had to replace them with the relavant Hindenberg Cross, & or Austrian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Official Commemoration Medals, dating from about 1933 onwards.

Veterans who no longer had a connection to any official Civil Service group or military group could and did continue to sport many of the older styles and forms of medals.

I am sure Rick would have the details as with regards the official stance and regulations.

Kevin in Deva,

[John Burchell]

While it began over my question of which award fits the document posted, I am enjoying and learning from this interesting discussion and appreciate the input from members. Don Scowen and I had separately touched upon the matter of DRKB insignia appearing on a number of shooting award documents spanning a period of years, which appear to document the evolution of that insignia, with and without the swastika - and this continues here.

The most detailed information regarding the Kyffhauser League (Kyffhauserbund) c. 1872; its' successor the DRKB (Deutscher Reichskriegerbund - Kyffhauser) c. 1921; and the NS-RKB or NSKB (National Socilalist Reichskriegerbund) c. 1938 (when, by Fuhrer decree it became "the only ex-soldiers' organization in the Reich"), that I can find is contained in a book by Ray Chowdery entitled, "Nazi Para-Military Organizations and their Badges" published in 1985. The origin and evolution of this veteran's society or league is covered therein. However, the evolution of the logo on badges and documents of the organization is not clearly shown.

The "Kyffhauser-Ehrenzeichen II. Klasse" award document above indicates that it is presented to a comrade/member in recognition of his services to the DRKB, therefore clearly not a military service medal. I assume the format to be a medal or badge of sorts (Ehrenzeichen = decoration), as opposed to the pin/stickpin ("Ehrennadel") format used for membership and shooting awards. Note that this service award document presented in 1936 bears the swastika - positioned below the monument - in the organization logo and seal.

The use of a swastika in the DRKB logo appears somewhat inconsistent around the mid-1930s (see membership stickpins and logos appearing on shooting award documents below from 1935, 1936 & 1937 respectively). It presents the question of whether the recognized Type I (without swastika) and Type 2 (with swastika) should be expanded to recognize another type appearing between the years on documents (ie. swastikas on either side of the monument).

In any case, I remain hopeful that a positive confirmation of the award appropriate to the document above can be made, and look forward to additional discussion.

Regards,

John

Edited March 4, 2007 by John Burchell

[Nick]

Interesting topic and it does open up the wider debate as to evolution of the DRKB Insignia and the inclusion of the swastika. Has anyone got a rough timeline when the insignia changed ?

As for the award which matches the certificate as John says Ehrenzeichen can cover both a medal type decoration and badge so it does not help to really narrow it down.

Dortmund was in Prussia but the Prussian Landeskriegerverband is a separate Organisation unless it was incorporated into the DRKB, but even so would they still be issuing such awards as late as 1936 ?

[Kev in Deva]

Great Topic Gents,

With regards the Ist and II Class medals of the Kyfferh?user Bund Association, is it possible that stocks of Association medals already exsisted and no plans were made to change them to a new design until old stocks were depleated?

Possibly because cash was scarce in the early 30s to pay for a new mint with a swastika

Kevin in Deva.

[Scowen]

Has anyone got a rough timeline when the insignia changed ?

These dates are very confusing, as a very rough guide, we have generally used H?sken's catalogue "Katalog der Abzeichen deutscher Organisationen 1871 - 1945" as a time frame, however John's certificates seem to show inaccuracies with it. Lets use the shooting badges as an example. Following H?sken, the pin shown on the extreme left (top row) by John above is listed as the DRKB Kyffh?user Type I shooting badge. The Type II is listed as the version showing the monument, with crossed rifles & a Swastika in the centre of them illustrated by John on the extreme right.

H?sken then lists the pin shown in the centre with the small Swastikas in the spaces either side of the monument as the NSRKB, which would be post 1938. However, John's certificate which has this image on is dated April 1937 with the name of the organisation still listed as the DRKB...... Availability wise this makes sense as this pin is far harder to locate than the supposidly earlier version with the single Swastika. A transitional piece which may have only been around for a year will be harder to find that the version which was used until the end of the war.

Cheers

Don

[Guest Rick Research]

Jef and Kev are right and that is the zebra-ribboned Hideous Beast in question.

I had statutes from the 1920s (xeroxes still around someplace) that specified that no more than 1 in 10 ordinary members could possess the 2nd class in a local group, or more than 1 in 100 the 1st class. What local groups with 19 or 42 members were supposed to do, I dunno.

Aside from being INCREDIBLY UGLY (and the 2nd Class with an absolutely freakish suspension,) these continued to be awarded well into the Third Reich even though they could no longer be WORN. If memory serves, I've seen award documents from during the war. The design didn't change-- they may have been using up left over "stock."

These sometimes show up in 1920s medal bars, but it is literally impossible to get that suspension into German medal bar ribbon mountings properly AND the horrid things are much too big!!!!

The ONLY other local version I've seen is a slightly (but not MUCH ) nicer one from the Anhalt state local, which has their escaping zoo bear scaling the city wall in enamel in the center.

[John Burchell]

Thanks, Rick, for confirming the medal which I need to find to fill this gap. I can understand what you say about the mounting of this award. My man obviously felt the same way as can be seen from his medal bar pictured below - with this one noticeably absent!

John

[Ulsterman]

To throw in my 2 pennies. Local vets groups continued to award their own medals until the consolidation of the varied vets associations was completed in 1936.

The time line goes like this:

Jan. 1933 Hitler gains power. Shortly thereafter Stahlhelm and other armed paramilitary vets groups incorporated into the SA as "SA Reserve". Unruliness ensues. Many newly minted SA members, eager to demonstrate loyalty to the new order (and receive benefits) mount medals, wear altered uniforms and attend long meetings with enthusiastic frequency. Many private medals purchased so as to enhance new uniforms.

1934: SA comprises of 2-3 million members, gets threatening. Initial weeding out of SA begins, with anti-NSDAP conservatives and others forced to resign.

Night of the Long Knives occurs in June, 1934.

Shortly thereafter in the Fall, 1934, Hitler proclaims Hindenberg Cross. Hindenberg insists jewish vets receive it also. HKs begin to be issued in late Fall/Winter 1934-1935.

Sept. 1934-1936: Weeding out of SA reserve begins, @ 350,000-1,000,000 expelled/resign. You will see many very nice documents issued from 1935-1936 to expelled SA Reserve members (or those who resigned) saying "Service Honour diploma" etc..

New uniform regs established.

NSDAP party members argue over who controls what, how, where-ferocious Gauleiter/SA/NSDAP central office/ Wehrmacht (!) and NSRKB (inchoate) turf squabbles ensue.

Late 1935/early 1936 Govt. reissues wound badges to all WW1 vets who can show wounds and badge never awarded. @ 350,000 + badges awarded. Street protests occur by war invalids who were invalided out by illness or accident and who do not receive the wound badge. Angry letters written in newspapers about whether trench foot was a 'wound'.

Late in 1935 (October?) almost all "unofficial" vets awards banned for official wear. News published later in month in SA magazines, newspapers etc. Wearing "private awards" frowned upon, but pictures clearly show this continued through 1936. A few random snaps show up here and there with Freikorps awards or other medals in wear, but almost NEVER on Wehrmacht uniforms. One does occasionally see private awards (notably the Hamburg Feldehrenzeichen) here and there on civilian clothing and sometimes, SA uniforms, but almost never after 1937. Official pronouncements made about possible 'disloyalty' being displayed by non regulation awards being worn.

Jan. 1935-1936, military build up starts in earnest. Many old soldiers recalled.

1936-38: Long service awards issued, requiring medal bars to be remounted and regulations to be reviewed by many awardees.

The big difference is that the veterans associations were national, but with strong provincially based subunits. I have a partial run of the Saxon veterans magazines from 1923-1939 and it is clear that they continued to award their local awards through 1939. These magazines, filled with stories about the heroes of Mars La Tour, the winners of the local auxillery baking contests and local commemorative parades are VERY different from the Stahlhelm. The Stahhelm had prestige, numbers and training and a LARGE number of ex officers in its midst. They were dangerous and tough-and needed to be defanged -and they were.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Ulsterman

[John Burchell]

Quote: Sept. 1934-1936: Weeding out of SA reserve begins, @ 350,000-1,000,000 expelled/resign. You will see many very nice documents issued from 1935-1936 to expelled SA Reserve members (or those who resigned) saying "Service Honour diploma" etc..Unquote

Thank you Ulsterman!...and a very interesting 2 pennies they are! Amongst "my man's" documents are the following, which I believe underscore your chronologically-historical input:

A. The first dated 1.Feb.1935 confirming his membership candidacy application (1.April 1934) and acceptance into the NSDAP (1.Juli 1934) as member Number 1,238,465; and

B. The second dated 31.Dezember 1935 confirming his voluntary and honourable withdrawal from SA membership following his term of service and having fulfilled his duties in the SAR II from 10. Juli 1934 to 31.12.1935, in accordance with the decree by the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command of the SA: F Nr. 63 140 of 22.November 1935 concerning the "Consolidation of SAL and SAR Units".

As shown above, he received his 2nd class service award from the DRKB on 15. Juli 1936.

An interesting feature of most of his documents which I possess is that they are signed by ex-Colonel, later General of Infantry and SS-Gruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Reinhardt who was an early member of the Nazi Party and the SS, and was appointed new leader (Reichskriegfuhrer) of the DRKB on the Emperor's birthday, January 27, 1934.

Cheers,

John

Edited March 5, 2007 by John Burchell

[Nick]

Just to clear things up for me did the DRKB and later NSKB take control of regional veterans associations i.e. the Prussian Landeskriegerverband, as the award certificate is issued by the DRKB, but the awards themselves were still the old regional variant ?

[Peter J]

I made some searches on the Internet and come up with interesting info (with reservation for my poor German ).

The first Kriegerbund was formed in 1786 by F?silliere Fredrich des Grossen in Wangerin/Pommern. Several followed, but not until the conflicts in 1864, 1866 and 1871 did they expand significantly. In 1873 was the Deutscher Kriegerbund formed by the dominating Preussischen Landesverband, leaving the remaining Landesverbanden (Bayern, Sachsen, W?rttenburg, Hessen and Baden) independent. So far Wikipedia.

The earlier "St?ndige Ausschuss der Deutschen Landes-Krieger-Verb?nde f?r die Verwaltung des Keiser Wilhelm Denkmals auf dem Kyffh?user" adopted the new name "Kyffh?user-Bund der Deutschen Landes-Krieger-Verb?nde" in 1900 and by that became the central organisation for all Landesverbande. In 1922 yet another name was adopted "Deutscher Reich-Krieger-Bund Kyffh?user".

In 1912 there were 27 Landesverb?nde with 31.004 branches totalling 2.746.505 members.

Well. I'm struggling with my German, so here's a link

http://www.smvb.de/organisation/kueff_3.html

KR

Peter

[John Burchell]

Ray Chowdery states on pages 108 & 109 of his book (referenced above) that:

"In keeping with the stronger centralizing tendencies which asserted themselves after the First World War in Germany, the several State leagues of ex-service men were in 1921 united in a Reich League (Deutscher Reichskriegerbund Kyffhauser), under a central directorship which was conservative though not political....It fought neither for nor against rising National Socialism, but bowed promptly to that upstart force, like most other German conservatives. On May 7, 1933, it submitted its fate to Adolf Hitler who decreed that: 'The Kyffhauser League is the great soldiers' league for all Germany.'"

Apparently other ex-servicemens' organizations continued for a few years, with the exception of the"Stahlhelm", "...the demise of [which] was declared on November 7, 1935, the founding date of the 'Soldatenbund' (a new 'Soldiers' League' formed by the commander of the Army on orders of the Reichswehr Minister with the consent of the Fuhrer), as well as the day when the new swastika war flag was for the first time hoisted by all Army and Navy units....This new league was to be composed of former members of the Reichswehr and the new Army....those who had been honorably discharged...after January 1, 1921....altogether voluntary. At the same time the Kyffhauser Bund and a few other surviving ex-servicemen's organizations were to receive those who had served before 1921....The Steel Helmet men were told to join singly either the Nazi party and its organizations, if they had political interests, or the Kyffhauser League if there interests were merely soldierly or sentimental."

"The Soldatenbund saw a short period of prosperity"....however "A Fuhrer decree on March 4, 1938, taking cognizance of certain attempts on the part of the Army and other officers to preserve the ex-service men's organizations as reserves of their own, made the NS Reichskriegerbund, NSKB, as it was henceforth to be called, the one and only ex-soldiers' organization in the Reich. It was to include all former members of the old Army and Navy and of the new Wehrmacht, with only two exceptions - the NS League of War Victims (NS Kriegsopferverband, NSKOV), and the Reich Loyalty League of Former Professional Soldiers (Reichstreubund ehemaliger Berufssoldaten).""

A bit long-winded quoting this text, but hopefully helpful in answering Nick's question.

Edited March 6, 2007 by John Burchell

[Ulsterman]

Your man had some pull-or was a member of an affiliated Nazi organization before 1933.

That is a lowish ended number for 1934. They closed the NSDAP to new entries in Mai, 1933. Your man was one of the backlog-but the number is still low for a Maiblumer.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Ulsterman