Yugoslavia Order of Military Merit

[Anatoly13]

Waldemar,why do you think that this is tombac?

[wlodzimierz]

Interesting question Anatoly,

I'm convinced because there are no hallmarks and since the order were worn you can see it, look at the ends of rays between 700 and 800.

You will see tombac behind silver layer. These are early orders made from tombac and cover with thick silver layer. The way how the order was made is consistent with other orders made at that time.

[SasaYU]

I agree with Anatoly,

if it is with 5 torches, it is an early type, probably silver. Inspect it more carefully. Aren't those hallmarks under those scratches ?

[wlodzimierz]

This is better image, you will easily discover that there is tombac behind silver layer. There are no hallmarks, what hallmarks should be put on such mixed composition?

Early orders without hallmarks for example Order of the War Flag have no hallmarks, I suppose that they are made from tomback and covered with silver and gold. But still on such orders you will find no hallmarks. I saw Awarding documents from 1954 for such order.

[Anatoly13]

This is better image, you will easily discover that there is tombac behind silver layer. There are no hallmarks, what hallmarks should be put on such mixed composition?

Early orders without hallmarks for example Order of the War Flag have no hallmarks, I suppose that they are made from tomback and covered with silver and gold. But still on such orders you will find no hallmarks. I saw Awarding documents from 1954 for such order.

I see now that it's not silver.

I heard that all 3 classes of this order with 5 torches were in tombac but I saw 3 cl. only.

I though that those order was just exeption from the rules...

We have new variant without doubts, but early or later variant - it's still a question...

Can you weigh this order?

Waldemar,pls send me good images of this order for my page.

[SasaYU]

Here is quotation from book by Stojan Rudez - Orders and medals of SFR Yugoslavia:

"Untill 1980. on the reverse of Orders for military berits (all 3 orders)silver hallmarks nad signature of maker (IKOM) were stamped. Order for military merits with great star was made from tombac in period 1981. - 1985., and then after that period from silver again. Orders for military merits II and III were made from tombac from 1980. after that period there were no hallmarks on the reverse."

So by this author, your order should be from period 1981. - 1985.

Orders with 5 torches were issued before 1963., when changes from 5 to 6 torches were made. (Changes in the coat of arms of SFR Yugoslavia were made in 1963.).

Edited April 26, 2009 by SasaYU

[wlodzimierz]

SashaYU thank you for comments,

I know this excellent book, generally speaking Mr. Rudaz was very correct. But there are some nor correct information. Of course there is no statement of this type of order. But it does not mean that such order exists, in this point was Mr. Rudaz not correct. I know another such order even with number on inner circle, this order has been posted by Rusty and can be found in OMSA Database.

I can give you another samples: due to Mr. Rudas Order of National army 1st class is made from silver only and they have IKOM hallmarks. The problem is that there are Order of National army 1st cl. without hallmarks made from tombac. Due to Mr. Rudaz there are no such orders.

Third sample is Order of War Flag, due to Mr. Rudaz this order order is made from gold and silver with IKOM hallmarks and there are no tombac version. Again, there are orders without hallmarks made from tomback, I saw one with Awarding document awarded in 1954 to an JNA General.

There are other not correct information in that book, I corrected them in my book.

lp w :cheers:

[Anatoly13]

Dear Waldemar!

Rusty's order I deleted from my database because I think it's fake.

Look on it carefully and you will see that central part is from 2 class.

;)

[wlodzimierz]

Look on it carefully and you will see that central part is from 2 class.

Hi A13,

Do you mean Rusty's order or this one I posted here?

:unsure:

[Anatoly13]

I mean this order:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2763&st=80

[wlodzimierz]

Thank you for this link, you have better eyes I see not very much.

Anatoly do you mean that there are no Orders of Military Merits 1st cl 5 torches without hallmarks (made from tombac)?

:unsure:

[wlodzimierz]

Can you weigh this order?

Here you are: it has 70,1 gr.

[Anatoly13]

Can you weigh this order?

Here you are: it has 70,1 gr.

Very light weigh!

My tombac 6 torches - near 85 gr. :speechless:

[Anatoly13]

...

Anatoly do you mean that there are no Orders of Military Merits 1st cl 5 torches without hallmarks (made from tombac)?

I would refrain from such categorical statements, without having studied well this order. We constantly open something new in Yugoslavian faleristic and you have set a good example from the Stojan Rudez book. But it is impossible to exclude and that fact that demand gives rise to offers and we see that in this market appears more and more fakes.

[SasaYU]

Mr Stojan Rude? was Chief of bureau of orders in Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

He should at least know facts about orders and medals of Yugoslavia.

[Bryan]

But it is impossible to exclude and that fact that demand gives rise to offers and we see that in this market appears more and more fakes.

Do we have a lot of fakes order that were posted on the forum? If so, it would be interesting to open a thread about them. I'm not so familiar yet with fake yugoslavian awards!

[wlodzimierz]

I know SasaYU that he was a Chief of bureau of orders in Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

But this fact doesn't explain the question why do we have orders which were not described or mentioned by Mr. Rudaz without taking into consideration that maybe punctual he has not all information.

As we know there are Order of National Army 1st cl without hallmarks made from tombac and plated with silver. This Order were created at the same time as Order for Military Merits. Why should it be impossible that we have Order for Military Merits 1st cl. 5 torches without hallmarks made from tombac and plated with silver, when we know that at the same time Order of National Merit 1st has been made in this way? Why should it be impossible?

Fazit: Mr. Rudaz was very correct in almost all cases, in same cases he had not all information we have today.

thanks for your comments :cheers:

[SasaYU]

I am not saying that any author is absolutely right, I am just saying that he probably had the best source of information, according to his profession.

My guess would be that tombac orders were issued in late '80. Maybe after mr Rude? leave his job as Chief of bureau of orders in Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and after publishing his book.

Edited April 27, 2009 by SasaYU

[wlodzimierz]

My guess would be that tombac orders were issued in late '80. Maybe after mr Rude? leave his job as Chief of bureau of orders in Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and after publishing his book.

As you know Mr. Rudaz was on duty in 80 and that time he has deep knowledge of all details. Till 1985 was not exactly defined what part of orders are made from what metal. Mr. Rudaz exactly describe that awards but in his description he didn't mention the orders I mentioned ONA1, OVZ1, ORZ, he was in office at that time, he had deep knowledge how the awards werde made at that time. It is not possible that he has overlooked the way how such important military orders at that time were made. it is in my opinion not possible. These orders were made earlier, these were first orders where the structure of used metals was not specified.

This is consistent with other facts: I've seen Order of the War Flag without hallmarks made from tombac and plated with gold and silver awarded to JNA General in 1954.

As you know the new law introduced in 1986 specified what parts of awards are made from what metals as described by Mr. Rudaz. Why should IKOM produce after 1986 awards which were in conflict with existing law? This is not possible.

Could you tell me based on what facts do you think that such orders were made in late '80?

Thank you SasaYU, interesting diskussion :cheers:

[SasaYU]

If order is not issued from 1981. - 1985. (what is a period of which we are certain that orders were made from tombac) that is my only logical guess. No facts.

I doubt that before 1981. order was made of tombac.

[wlodzimierz]

If order is not issued from 1981. - 1985. (what is a period of which we are certain that orders were made from tombac) that is my only logical guess. No facts.

I doubt that before 1981. order was made of tombac.

Is the reason why you doubt the lack of existence in Mr. Rudaz book?

Are tombac made order: Order of National Army 1st cl and Order of the War Flag are they made in late '80 too?

How do you explain the Order of the War Flag without hallmarks, made from silvered und gild tombac awarded to JNA General with awarding document from 1954?

Mr. Rudaz wrote that only 2nd und 3rd class of Order for National Merit after 1981 were made from tombac, not 1st class. How do you explain first Order for National Merits 1st cl. without hallmarks and made from tombac?

I could put more examples, but it is unneccessary, SasaYU as you earlier wrote we are only humans and humans make mistakes. Si did Mr. Rudas some mistakes, I found some and corrected some of them but maybe I made other mistake, probably yes, who knows?

I think that diskussion was interesting to other members since some facts are not common known.

:cheers:

[SasaYU]

Dear Waldemar,

I hope that you are not taking my opinion personally.

All I am saying is that as far as I know Orders for Military Merits with great star (1. cl) were made of tomac from 1981. - 1985.

And that I doubt that before 1981. order was made of tombac.

That's all.

P.S. - As for other orders you mentioned, maybe it is a good idea to post them in a separate topic and discuss about them or fakes, as some members suggested. Also, maybe it is a good idea to discuss mistakes we found in known literature, also in separate topics. We can all benefit from discussion.

[Anatoly13]

Do we have a lot of fakes order that were posted on the forum? If so, it would be interesting to open a thread about them. I'm not so familiar yet with fake yugoslavian awards!

Bryan,I did not use this word-combination ( lot of fakes ).

Certainly there are not lot of fakes, but they appear and, basically, it concerns not cheap awards.

[Anatoly13]

Waldemar!

Is it possible to send me big pics of your order or? :speechless:

[wlodzimierz]

Waldemar!

Is it possible to send me big pics of your order or?

Of course, I will send you some images.

w