Pierced Crown Clich? Bavarian Pilot's Badge

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

I have searched for an authentic example for about 10 years, and I am quite confident in this one. Please feel free to post comments and/or opinions.

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Reverse...

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Crown

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Taube

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Landscape

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Cross reverse

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Crown reverse

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Obverse cut-out detail

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Hinge and pin

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Catch

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Taube gear close-up

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Last shot...

[Luftmensch]

We don't know this maker, but it's examples are starting to come out of the woodwork. I think it's terrific. Congratulations!

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

We don't know this maker, but it's examples are starting to come out of the woodwork. I think it's terrific. Congratulations!

Thanks very much. I cannot tell you how happy I am to have this example. It is my pride and joy...

[joe campbell]

i have a similarly marked, stunning 1914 EK 1

which is a private purchase, vaulted, and one

of the finest EK 1's i have.

you have a beautiful badge there!

joe

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

i have a similarly marked, stunning 1914 EK 1

which is a private purchase, vaulted, and one

of the finest EK 1's i have.

you have a beautiful badge there!

joe

Thanks Joe, agree totally with the statement about quality. This firm seems to have used the exact same hinge, pin, and catch on their aviation badges, and Ek 1's as well. I was once told by a jeweler that this mark was a very old silver mark...but I am not convinced any longer about that. The very fact that the square mark appears on the hardware (pin), and is identical on different badges tends to make me think that it is indeed a mm, not a content mark. I hope we will know for sure one day.

I am really surprised that there have been nearly 120 views, and only two comments (although those two are most appreciated). I guess that is a good sign, and tells me that there isn't anything that jumps out as being "bad" and nothing worthy of critique.

Edited March 28, 2007 by IMPERIAL QUEST

[Steve K.]

Nice badge! I like it!!

I think the mark is a silver mark and not a maker's mark, but that is just my guess.

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Nice badge! I like it!!

I think the mark is a silver mark and not a maker's mark, but that is just my guess.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I keep going back and forth on my opinion of what exactly it is. This week... I am thinking mm because of something I saw on the Aerodrome forum. It was a Bavarian solid example in brass/tomback which was silver plated...the kicker - there was a square mark on the reverse above the hinge. The photos were really not good enough to form a good/bad opinion, but I thought it was interesting to see on a non silver badge (a first for me).

[Claudius]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I keep going back and forth on my opinion of what exactly it is. This week... I am thinking mm because of something I saw on the Aerodrome forum. It was a Bavarian solid example in brass/tomback which was silver plated...the kicker - there was a square mark on the reverse above the hinge. The photos were really not good enough to form a good/bad opinion, but I thought it was interesting to see on a non silver badge (a first for me).

Hello Imperial Quest;

To add to the body of discussion here; I too have a stamped pilot badge, with this high quality and with this square mark on on the pin. However, mine is a Prussian badge. I have also looked for information regarding it and couldn't find if it was a mm or silver mark. I don't have any photos of it to share -yet.

Now then... you asked "there isn't anything that jumps out as bad". I will have the temerity to point out something, and then I will get my head down for the responses. The cross at the top. It's kind of ...ummmm...short, for a Bav. crown??? What do others that have stamped Bav. badges think?

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Hello Imperial Quest;

To add to the body of discussion here; I too have a stamped pilot badge, with this high quality and with this square mark on on the pin. However, mine is a Prussian badge. I have also looked for information regarding it and couldn't find if it was a mm or silver mark. I don't have any photos of it to share -yet.

Now then... you asked "there isn't anything that jumps out as bad". I will have the temerity to point out something, and then I will get my head down for the responses. The cross at the top. It's kind of ...ummmm...short, for a Bav. crown??? What do others that have stamped Bav. badges think?

Hi Claudius,

I'll see if I can find the photos of my Prussian cliche' sqaure marked example and post them.

I am glad you pointed the cross out, I was waiting for someone to ask. and I hope others will post examples here. As far as the height, I am speculating that it was broken during wear, and re-soldered by a jeweler. The green verdegris (sp?) could be a reaction between the solder, and the silver. Thinking in this manner, this makes me think that this is indeed what happened. Originally, there would have been more to the vertical lower portion of the cross. These are very small, and incredibly fragile. I don't see how pilots managed to not break their cross given the position that they were worn.

I think it adds character, and whispers "I have been up there" to me... Thanks for the reply, and the keen eye.

Edited March 28, 2007 by IMPERIAL QUEST

[Claudius]

I wholly agree. These guys are wearing them on their uniforms in an area that would see the material folding and moving. And those long crosses would be especially vulnerable to breaking. The piece is great and I actually perfer stamped pilot badges to the 2 piece ones. Yeah, I know I go against the crowd, but the stamped badges are the issue pieces from the war years. I like that. [that being said, I wouldn't turn down other pieces, (like the ones I own) I just like the ones that I know are goverment issue and from the war era.]

-Claudius

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

I wholly agree. These guys are wearing them on their uniforms in an area that would see the material folding and moving. And those long crosses would be especially vulnerable to breaking. The piece is great and I actually perfer stamped pilot badges to the 2 piece ones. Yeah, I know I go against the crowd, but the stamped badges are the issue pieces from the war years. I like that. [that being said, I wouldn't turn down other pieces, (like the ones I own) I just like the ones that I know are goverment issue and from the war era.]

-Claudius

Claudius,

You are my kind of people... I feel the same about these. I started out collecting the cliche' variations because they were more afordable than the two piece. Now, I to prefer them over the others....but like you - I would not turn a two piece down (if I had the funds on hand). As far as this particular example, it may or may not be a private purchase example (more than likely, I think so). The Bavarian Air Service numbered just over 3,000, but not ALL pilots would have received a badge. So, if such a small number was awarded, it could be more feasible to award silver examples early on.

A long time very experienced collector told me that issue pieces came in differing metal contents. It was based on what they had at the time. I do feel that this example is definitely a war time piece, private or issue. given the astronomical inflation rate that destroyed the German economy after the war, buying this badge would have probably been the equivalent of buying a house or two at the time. The other reason I think wartime is the fact that it has the square mark on what is accepted as period-type hardware.

[Claudius]

Tale of two clich?s;

At long last, here are photos of two cliche badges I own. They are examples of two different construction types, probably made years apart from each other. After an immediate glace, someone might guess that the one on the right is a fake, however the providence on each is very, very good. I owned the left one for twelve years and was owned 15 years prior by another collector. For the price that was paid at that time, it wouldn't have been worthwhile to fake.

The right one, I purchased ten years ago along with other items from a hate belt. To this day, it was a hate belt that had the most "stuff" on it that I have ever seen before or since. I have photos (film) of what it looked like before it was entirely disassembled. (The subject of preserving or disassembling the belt was not a choice given to me, my only choice was if I wanted to buy certain items.) I even bought the old, decaying belt that badge was affixed to. The badge grooved and marred the leather in a way that only time can. This badge must be a late war product. And from the number and variety of items that were on the hate belt, I would guess that the Allied soldier that created it was a POW guard and "picked" the stuff off the guys as they rolled in. But that, of course, is just a guess. Someday I will have to scan those old film photos and show them in the appropriate thread. Again the price paid for this badge would preclude any profit from producing a fake.

The finely made badge on the left has the square mm or silver mark that this thread was all about. With this, and the evidence of the fine Bav. badge having this mark as well on a high quality piece that looks every bit like silver or silver-plate, I am of the opinion that the make is type of silver mark.

In any event. Please enjoy the photos of the badges.

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Thanks for the photos Claudius. I recently obtained the Sanke card book by Charles Woolley. In it, there are at least two Sanke cards that show the same Bavarian type as I posted. I will post one of the good close ups that 100% without any doubt whatsoever...shows the same exact type. The only exception being Lt. Muller's cross (KIA Jan 1918) is broken off in the picture. The wreath, and the way it "supports" the crown at the bottom is absolutely identical. No shadows, imagination, weird angles, photo manipulation, forged images, or any other ridiculous theories. Just proof-positive authentic, period pre-February 1918 proof that this type is not a post war type. Also, this dispells the myth held by some that only Poellath made Bavarian badges. Completely different crown pattern, especially in the area of the base and the central area of the beaded arms of the crown.

[Claudius]

Sorry about the delay in adding all my photos

Imperial Quest: Great detective work there! Thanks for your insights.

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