Cut Out Imperial Prussian Pilot's Badge

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Well, I really don't know what else to add to this other than I would love to hear from Ferg1 and some thoughts from Stogieman.

I cannot count how many times I have heard this statement over the past 20 years..."if only we had a period photo"....We have a period photo that shows a cut out Pilot's Badge. Instead of accepting what we see, and re-thinking long-accepted opinions of the past, are we going to create unlikely baseless scenarios and dismiss the photographic proof ?

I think it is not very wise to dismiss any item that does not correspond to our idea of what is "textbook"; especially when we have a period photo before us. We need to think in the period mindset, and not from the perspective of a collector 90+ years after the fact. I don't think Fritz Rumey (or any other person of the time) was concerned with confusing future collectors by creating/modifying a badge that does not fit our definitions of what is acceptable, and what is not.

Not sure who Mike Stacey is....but, he is basically saying that two different flying badges were created basically so the pilot could have a choice of which one to wear based on aesthetics (whether he liked birds or planes) after a certain period of time ? Why would an active duty pilot wear a badge created for pilots no longer flying? I guess it comes down to seeing is not believing for some...

[Luftmensch]

Let's do a probability analysis, since the photo simply isn't clear...

In decreasing order of probability:

1. Pilot in shadow.

2. Pilot tarnished.

3. Commemorative

4. Pilot cut-out.

I ascribe probability based on numbers in existence, i.e. I've seen thousands of number 1, but never seen a real number 4.

Mike Stacey was a researcher and writer for Cross and Cockade. He claims based on period charters that criteria for a Commem. Pilot badge DID NOT require loss of flying status. Does anyone have docs to the contrary? I'm trying to get photocopies backing up his assertion from him in the mean time--he's not computer savvy.

Rgds

PS I dimly remember a photo of a Pilot and Comm. Pilot's badge worn together. Stogie?

Edited April 3, 2007 by Luftmensch

[Ferg1]

Let's do a probability analysis, since the photo simply isn't clear...

In decreasing order of probability:

1. Pilot in shadow.

2. Pilot tarnished.

3. Commemorative

4. Pilot cut-out.

I ascribe probability based on numbers in existence, i.e. I've seen thousands of number 1, but never seen a real number 4.

Mike Stacey was a researcher and writer for Cross and Cockade. He claims based on period charters that criteria for a Commem. Pilot badge DID NOT require loss of flying status. Does anyone have docs to the contrary? I'm trying to get photocopies backing up his assertion from him in the mean time--he's not computer savvy.

Rgds

PS I dimly remember a photo of a Pilot and Comm. Pilot's badge worn together. Stogie?

[Ferg1]

Hi guys (sorry for the above posting with no comments in ,my error). Annyway here is my opinion. It is difficult to see exactly what the badge is it looks like a Flieger-Erinnergsabzeichen ( retired badge) more like an eagle shape than a plane, but then again if one looks at the Sanke card book by Charles Woolley there are two other shots of Ltn. Rumey and his pilot badge does seem to have some sort of patinated background which tends to highlight the Taube as do other pilots in the book.The private purchase badges came with an option to have a patinated finish and we see this quite often,see von Althaus in the same book as above.Look ,if you own a copy of the sanke card book at Julius Buckler sanke no.585, sure looks like a cut-out badge to me!! I do have a contemporary picture of a pilot wearing a cut-out pilot badge but I am dammed if I can find it!! I am sure that there is a thread on the wehrmacht forum with the same picture in from way back. Regards,Ferg1

[Ferg1]

Actually, I am not convinced that Ltn Julius Buckler in Sanke 585 is wearing a cut-out example,looking again at the picture it may well be just a patinated background ( sky area) ,hard to say for sure,but as I said, there is definately a period picture of a pilot with a cut-out badge on a previous thread (the ' other ' forum ,I think)Ferg1.

[Les]

Stogie, Steven,

Looks like a pilot badge in this enlargement. And cut out as well. See below. This would have been in May 1918. Steve

In the photo, Rumey isn't wearing the GMVK, nor does he have officer's shoulder straps. That places the photo before June 1918. Also, note the Sanke card number, which is another way of providing a rough index of when the photo was taken. Other details such as the relative lack of fullness (or leaves) in the trees in the background suggest spring-time rather than summer.

While looking through some of my sources at home, I found another photo which appears to have been taken at the same time (same day, same photographer) of Rumey, Koennecke, and Mai. If you compare the following photos with Rumey's Sanke card, and the one on this post, there are some intersting details that are the same. Note the crease on the upper part of Rumey's tunic, being present in both photos. The badge appears to be the same in both photos. Also...pay attention to the background details, as these will be compared to some additional photos.

Les

[Les]

A close up view of Rumey from the previous photo....

[Les]

Now....it would appear that the photographer took the "Sanke card" photo of Rumey at the same time he took the group photo of Rumey, Koennecke, and Mai. None of them are wearing their later awards or officer shoulder straps. I'd guess the photo was taken in the interim between the period when they'd been nominated for the GMVK, and were awaiting officer commissioning.

That said, there is a squadron photo in existence that was probably taken the same time the individual shot of Rumey, and the group photo of R, K, & Mai was taken.

Here'tis!

[Les]

Hey! That's Rumey second from the right, and what's he got on his tunic? Enlarged in this photo (along with the pixellation from the printing process in the source book it came from....in this case, Neil O'Connor's second volume on aviation awards) you can see the badge....and it looks nothing like a cut-out badge.

[Les]

There are enough comparative details that strongly suggest all of the preceeding photos were taken on the same day. Rumey's uniform details are consitent throughout all of the three photos (the Sanke, group of 3, and squadron photo). The "details" of the badge might look different, but that enlarged photo taken from the squadron shot suggests that the badge is not cut-out, nor is it a retired pilot's badge either.

Let's not forget that cameras and films used during the WWI era and considerably different from modern cameras and films. The lenses have changed consequently, images can appear different from what they were/are, not only then but today. While images might look the same or different, it's always best to use caution when looking at old photos and remember what cameras (and lenses), and film properties of the times were.

One thing about the close-up of the enlarged image of Rumey from the squadron photo, is that the pilot's badge appears to be almost "solid" and not cut-out at all.

Unless Rumey had more than one tunic, and more than one badge ("wearing copies" is a term that comes to mind and not in a good way), -and- if the photos were taken on the same day, Rumey in all probability was wearing the same tunic and badges in all of the photos. If you look at the breast tunic pocket flap (the pocket with the EKI on it) note how the edge of the pocket seems to stick up a bit and not lie flat against his chest. This detail shows up in all of the photos, enforcing the probability the images were all taken the same day...and that has implications regarding the specific details of the badge.

What we are seeing in all probability is nothing more than the effect of shadow (and some tarnish/patination) in the Sanke card, and the group of three photo.

Any rebuttal comments from the opposite point of viewers?

Les

[Luftmensch]

No buttals or re-buttals from me. Plenty more reference points to conclude that's the same tunic and the rest is QED! Nice work, Les, now go do something productive today!!!

[dwmosher]

Just to put a little more fuel on the fire, although the tunic appears to be the same, the placement of the pilot's badge is markedly different (ie. lower) in the last photo (showing the solid badge) from the single photo of Rumey and the group photo of Rumey, Koennecke and Mai which show the same proximity of the "cut-out" badge to the pocket and EK1. Just an observation...

Regards

Dave

[Les]

Just to put a little more fuel on the fire, although the tunic appears to be the same, the placement of the pilot's badge is markedly different (ie. lower) in the last photo (showing the solid badge) from the single photo of Rumey and the group photo of Rumey, Koennecke and Mai which show the same proximity of the "cut-out" badge to the pocket and EK1. Just an observation...

Regards

Dave

Dave,

Good eye. I noticed the "placement of the badge" but didn't comment on it.

Badges were often worn by sewing two loops onto a tunic, and the pin being passed between the loops and tunic, rather than putting holes into the tunic material. Rumey might have worn the badge by "holing" the tunic, but in either case, it's positioning on the tunic (along with other badges) probably resulted in semi-permanent locations either through permanent holes with their resultant wear and tear, or sewn-in loops which more or less fix the location of a badge.

The badge does appear to be in a different position on the tunic, but that could be explained: the "span" between the sewn loops could come closer together due to Rumey slightly changing his body position by leaning inwards, etc. If the body position changed and the loops were temporarily closer together that would result in the badge's position moving up/down a small amount.

Les

[Gaffken]

I?m a little hesitant to get into this discussion, but to dovetail on Dave?s remarks, it also appears relatively clear that the position of the EKI in both photos is different, which, if taken together with the different position of the flight badge(s), suggests to me that we?re looking at two different tunics. I won?t get into the discussion on the veracity of the flight badges themselves, but having spent 10-12 yrs working in the military, I can honestly say that no officer or soldier has just one tunic or blouse, especially when he?s in the field. In fact, a friend of mine recently commented that he had *sixteen* pairs of old BDUs that were now useless with the recent change in US camouflage, which also meant that a great number of them had matching insignia, rank tabs, and unit patches, possibly all in slightly and minutely different locations. Granted, not all officers have 16, but they usually have more than one, with identical accoutrements.

Consequently, what leads me to believe that we have a two-tunic issue is the position of the EKI in post #32, which is clearly centered in the middle of the innermost ?slat? of his pocket, compared to the positioning of the same in post #34 (ie, from the large group shot), where the EKI is positioned further in, with the pin centered right on the edge of the ?bellows? of the pocket (ie, at the far right of the aforementioned innermost slat, not the middle)?you can just make out the edge of the bellows bisecting the EKI in the photo, despite the pixilation. Taken with the differing position of the flight badges that Dave pointed out, I?d say this speaks to a different set of sewn loops, suggesting another tunic (I?ll leave it up to you guys to decide on whether he had another set of badges for them).

Believe me, if this guy was really wearing the only tunic he had in the field, I?d be standing on the far edge of whatever group photo I was ever in with him! (phew!)

Just some observations,

Gaffken

[Luftmensch]

Yes, but some officers were wearing cardboard belts by this time...and civilians paper suits.

Meanwhile, I think we lost Imp six days ago...I congratulate him on finding more worthy pursuits that beating this dead horse!

Rgds

[Steve Russell]

Les,

Interesting observations and a tempting case. But I am with Dave and Graffken on this one. Pocket flaps are different, the badge placement as already noted, the bottom left pocket is wrinkled on this series of pictures and I do not believe the Sanke photo was taken in the field. It was taken in Germany I thought. So....not sure what to think about all of that.

As a soldier, I had many uniforms. In combat, I generally wore two to four depending on how well supplied I was and how static, etc. You can bet an aviator was better supplied than an Infantryman! I wore badges. Had a couple of pinback CIBs and many sew on--one for each uniform. What does that prove? Only this. No soldier just has one of anything. Not even in 1918. Just look at the threads on this forum when we find authentic groups of a pilot. They invariably will have more than one badge, more than one of certain medals, etc. I have been awarded several medals and decorations. And I have purchased additional medals for wear or mounting so I could keep my issue medals in the case. Even my ones for valor.

I still think we see what we see in the pic. I do buy your argument that pilots had the 'tarnished' badges, but I think these were 'burnished' or 'blued' from what the photo evidence shows. Given all that post #24 states, it is still easier to argue for what we see rather than to explain away the things we know:

1) Pilot was not retired

2) Photo was taken in May 1918 (when were the retired pilots' badges instituted and why is an 'active' pilot wearing one even if the date is before May 1918?)

And just to make things interesting given the Bruno Loerzer post, this was purportedly his and is perhaps the same purported PlM with it that Thies is auctioning. Can't say and don't know. Sorry it is a poor pic. Pulled it off the web long ago to add to my named PlM files. But note the badge!

Hoping someone can answer the two points above. Steve

Edited April 8, 2007 by Steve Russell

[Luftmensch]

Here are some better pictures of Loerzer's "personal cut-out pilot's badge."

http://www.pourlemerite.org/miscellaneous/miscellaneous.php

and some of the other insignia he wore when he went riding on his Harley!

This is the fake that we saw circulate several years ago, with the depiction of an engraved PLM and award date on the back of a handful of repro cut-out pilots to famous aces. There is a thread in which Stogie condemns them.

Rgds

Edited April 8, 2007 by Luftmensch

[Steve Russell]

This is the fake that we saw circulate several years ago, with the depiction of an engraved PLM and award date on the back of a handful of repro cut-out pilots to famous aces. There is a thread in which Stogie condemns them.

Rgds

Thanks. Didn't look like good pics anyway but my 2 points still reamin unanswered. Steve