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Dear Members

Would any collector have any ideas why the reverse to a Henry knight's order be without enamel. The badge itself seems to be nicely made of old quality. Perhaps intended for a medal bar or economy piece. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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Andreas has written about this order on his site!

It's very complete and nicely written!

Brunswick Order

Brunswick order with swords

Kind regards,

Jacky

p.s. nice pictures of your order!

This one differs from andrea's pictures...

This is a knight 2nd class.

But the non enamelled reverse is something which I can't explain....

Could this be possible that this is a private purchase??

Edited by Jacky
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:jumping: WOW!!! :jumping: That's a BEAUTIFUL medal!!! Would you Please tell me more about it?

:beer: Doc

Hi Doc

Wish I knew more but I'm at a dead end. Hoping there is a Brunswick specialist out there who has come across these. Maybe a trial model, prototype that just never took off.

Sincerely

Yankee

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Andreas has written about this order on his site!

It's very complete and nicely written!

Brunswick Order

Brunswick order with swords

Kind regards,

Jacky

p.s. nice pictures of your order!

This one differs from andrea's pictures...

This is a knight 2nd class.

But the non enamelled reverse is something which I can't explain....

Could this be possible that this is a private purchase??

Hi Jacky

Ow yeaaa Andreas's site is fantastic :D Never thought of private purchase that would explain seldom seen, thanks for that.

Sincerely

Yankee

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Hi Yankee,

Over the past thirty years, I have seen more Henry the Lion knight?s badges than I care to think about; but I must say that I have never seen one like this. Two points should be made. First, the obverse center medallion is of the pre 1908/post circa 1850 style; and second, the ribbon is incorrect.

So, what is this? Obviously since it is not an official issue piece, that leaves us with a private purchase. I would like to go one step further and suggest, for two reasons, that it is, more specifically, a copy made for a medal bar. I think that it is pretty safe to say that anyone who received this award would already have several other decorations; and the plain metal reverse is consistent with many enameled copies made for medal bars.

Shown below is an example of a Prussian Crown Order third class which is copy made for a bar. I apologize for the fact that I can not show a more detailed picture. but the way in which the decorations are secured prevents it.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

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Hi Yankee,

Your theory that this piece might represent a proposal to change over to the solid metal reverse is most interesting. This order experienced a previous change in 1909 that was the result of practicality. For some strange reason, when the awarding of insignia with swords was instituted in 1870, it was decided to mount the swords below the cross (see example below) rather than through it. My only guess is that this would make it more obvious that it was a military, rather than civil, award. By the early 1900?s, it became apparent that this was not such a good idea because the swords kept breaking off; so in 1909 it was decided that they would put them through the center. So, in this case, your theory is a realistic possibility; but lacking any documentation, I don?t think that we say for sure - very interesting, nevertheless.

With regard to the detail, or maybe I should say inclusion of the reverse center medallion, I think that this might be the result of the manner in which this piece was probably produced. Usually, when making a copy for a bar, only the obverse side has to be replicated; hence the smooth, plain reverse. In this case, though, I suspect that a mold was made of the reverse (note the detailed suspension crown, lions and ?W?s?) as well as the obverse and then the two were joined together. Why they would go to so much trouble is the real question; I just can not explain it.

More to come -

Wild Card

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Hi Wild Card

I see clearly what you are saying in how easily the swords can be damaged by having the swords below the cross. I'm surprised Brunswick did not follow the other German States & run the swords above the crown. Your point is excellent to show the swords as military and for all to see, then it would be advantageous on the bottom. What is interesting it took nearly 40 years to make the change, wonder why so long? I suppose a great amount of swords were given out in WWl... I saw one with gold swords that beonged to a knight 2nd class that ran through the center, an order with many combinations. Thank you for showing me your knight the way it should be :beer:

Sincerely

Yankee

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Looking at your post (#13), I just realized something that I did not spot in the earlier (#3) one. As a result, my suggestion - ?... I suspect that a mold was made of the reverse (note the detailed suspension crown, lions and ?W?s?)...? can not be completely correct. Shown below is the reverse center medallion of the badge shown in post #15. As you can see, the motto is flush with the surface and the horizontal ?hash marks? are beneath it.

Now, if the reverse of Yankee?s piece was a directly molded copy, the center medallion would come through as a flat, well slightly convex, surface without any detail.

So, the mystery continues....

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Hi Yankee,

Yes, they really got themselves in a fix by putting those swords under the cross, didn?t they? Sort of ?It seemed like a good idea at the time? thing. I think that the best answer would have been to have run them through the center, as they ultimately did; and then for emphasis a different ribbon could be attached - along the line of the Prussian (Red Eagle and Crown) orders with swords being put on the Iron Cross ribbon.

Granted that due to the ornate nature of this insignia, the swords tended to blend in. Has anyone noticed that where the swords are against silver ?W?s? (knight 2nd class), as you mention, they are gold; but in all other grades where they are against gold ??W?s?, they are silver. In the cases of the 4th class, officer?s cross and 1st class cross, where there are no ?W?s?, they are in gold - with one rare and little known exception. When an officer?s cross was awarded to a recipient who had swords on the knight first class, the swords on the officer?s cross would be silver.

This brings up your suggestion about following ?...the other German States & run the swords above the crown?. Actually, in the case of the knight 1st, commander and grand cross classes, when the recipient held the swords in the lower grade(s), the insignia would have the swords ?on ring?, as you suggest.

Lastly, no, on the contrary, surprisingly few were awarded in World War I. According to Reckewell/Fischer, between 1908 and 1918, five knights 1st class and two knights 2nd class with swords were awarded. As an aside, only one 4th class with swords was ever awarded - by some standards a relative low award, but they don?t get any rarer.

I hope that you find some of this information interesting and useful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

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Hi Yankee,

Yes, they really got themselves in a fix by putting those swords under the cross, didn?t they? Sort of ?It seemed like a good idea at the time? thing. I think that the best answer would have been to have run them through the center, as they ultimately did; and then for emphasis a different ribbon could be attached - along the line of the Prussian (Red Eagle and Crown) orders with swords being put on the Iron Cross ribbon.

Granted that due to the ornate nature of this insignia, the swords tended to blend in. Has anyone noticed that where the swords are against silver ?W?s? (knight 2nd class), as you mention, they are gold; but in all other grades where they are against gold ??W?s?, they are silver. In the cases of the 4th class, officer?s cross and 1st class cross, where there are no ?W?s?, they are in gold - with one rare and little known exception. When an officer?s cross was awarded to a recipient who had swords on the knight first class, the swords on the officer?s cross would be silver.

This brings up your suggestion about following ?...the other German States & run the swords above the crown?. Actually, in the case of the knight 1st, commander and grand cross classes, when the recipient held the swords in the lower grade(s), the insignia would have the swords ?on ring?, as you suggest.

Lastly, no, on the contrary, surprisingly few were awarded in World War I. According to Reckewell/Fischer, between 1908 and 1918, five knights 1st class and two knights 2nd class with swords were awarded. As an aside, only one 4th class with swords was ever awarded - by some standards a relative low award, but they don?t get any rarer.

I hope that you find some of this information interesting and useful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Hi Wild Card

Thanks a bunch for all that helpful info, certainly a lot to digest. I had always been curious why some badges would have swords on ring and others of the same class on bottom so as I understand now when he was promoted to a higher class of the order as a mark of distinction his swords would also be elevated. I assume these same rules would apply to the Prussian order system which I find extremely complex. In some examples I see ( Prussian ) swords awarded twice on the same badge, through the center & on ring. Since the swords were awarded so sparingly ( Brunswick ) in WWl was it given out as a military order to soldiers without swords & only for the most heroic acts of courage the swords were added? Or was Henry The Lion basically a civil order that is why not so many swords awarded? Fascinating that the swords were planned to be of a different metal from the rest of the badge and as you say blends in. Which it does beautifully, certainly one of the most striking orders ever designed, the heraldry just flows all over. Thank you

Sincerely

Yankee

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