Netherlands Foreign awards to Belgians WWI

[love4history]

Hello everybody,

We're not there yet but we're getting there... Guldenbookprojecthttp://www.tenboome.webruimtehosting.net/guldenboek/Guldenboekprojecttotaal/

(The site's in English, Dutch and French by the way)

So far we have data on 72396 individual Belgian soldiers who survived WWI. The data include name (obviously), place of residence (in the 30's), rank, unit served in, time spent at the front, wound stripes, possibly even a picture .. What some of you might perhaps will not now is that not all info is shown on the website... but available on request to the administrator of the site (or myself)... more particularly the medal entitlement of the individual soldiers is also available.. including foreign awards granted...

For exemple I'll give you the number of INDIVIDUAL recipients of 4 British awards that we have information on.

DSO: # 32

DCM: # 67

MM: # 80

MC: # 117

We could do the same for French awards, Russian etc... Perhaps the site might come in handy for phaleristic research as well, next to the use for genealogical and local-history research.

cheers

[Stijn David]

Hello,

Thank you for the usefull hint. You guys are doing a fantastic job and i can only say thank you for this project.

In Belgium we still have a lot of undiscovered things that can be researched, therefore once congratulations and keep up the good work

Cordial greetings,

[Veteran]

Hello everyone,

This is my first message on this outstanding forum, so please bear with me if I goof here or there.

It may be of interest to add at least 2 well-known British awards to this list :

The Allied Subjects Medal, in silver and in bronze. According to Abbott & Tamplin, the reference authors of "British Gallantry Awards" they were awarded for outstanding services at great risks, giving assistance to British soldiers behind the ennemy's lines. Recipients were mainly Belgian (60 silver medals including 27 to ladies, and 307 bronze medals including 118 to ladies - out of a total of 137 silver and 574 bronze medals.

Indeed an extremely scarce award, issued un-named. It seems that replacement silver medals may have also been struck in Belgium (I would love to have confirmation of this, as I believe I have one).

The other very seldom mentioned British award to Belgians is the British War Medal, approximately 4,300 of which were awarded for services to the Allied cause. They are fully described in one of the registers for the BWM kept by the British National Archives at Kew.

The medals are named on the edge with the initial and name of the person who received it. One such medal to a gentleman who lived in Ath is known. I seem to recall that a very good paper about an other one was published some years ago in the Journal of the OMRS. Apparently recipients were considered to be members of the Intelligence organisation of the British Forces, and received the medal as such.

This much for the 1914-1918 War. More British awards were certainly awarded to Belgians during WW2, including the King's Medal for Courage and the King's Medal for Service.

Very best regards to all the members of this forum

Veteran

Hello everybody,

We're not there yet but we're getting there... Guldenbookprojecthttp://www.tenboome.webruimtehosting.net/guldenboek/Guldenboekprojecttotaal/

(The site's in English, Dutch and French by the way)

So far we have data on 72396 individual Belgian soldiers who survived WWI. The data include name (obviously), place of residence (in the 30's), rank, unit served in, time spent at the front, wound stripes, possibly even a picture .. What some of you might perhaps will not now is that not all info is shown on the website... but available on request to the administrator of the site (or myself)... more particularly the medal entitlement of the individual soldiers is also available.. including foreign awards granted...

For exemple I'll give you the number of INDIVIDUAL recipients of 4 British awards that we have information on.

DSO: # 32

DCM: # 67

MM: # 80

MC: # 117

We could do the same for French awards, Russian etc... Perhaps the site might come in handy for phaleristic research as well, next to the use for genealogical and local-history research.

cheers

[love4history]

Thanks for the information. Indeed the BWM awarded to Belgians is rarely mentioned. In the 70000+ database I only find 7 recipients.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the information. Indeed the BWM awarded to Belgians is rarely mentioned. In the 70000+ database I only find 7 recipients.

Is Joannes Degezelle one of those 7 you found ? If not, check out www.medals.be under "Hall of Honours" ... he received the British Empire Medal as well

BTW, your database is a great project !

Cheers,

Hendrik

[love4history]

Hallo Hendrik

No, I'm afraid Joannes isn't among the 7 people mentioned. But our database isn't complete yet. Still missing about 15000 people I think (one book isn't indexed yet). And obviously the source (de Guldenboeken themselves) isn't complete itself so we will never be able to claim a 100% complete database.

Thanks for the support

cheers

Roel

[Veteran]

Hello Hendrik and Roel

It is not a surprise that few Belgian military personnel, if any, should be found among the BWM awards. At the end World War 1. Allies decided that they would not exchange commemorative war medals, and the Victory medal was created on a similar design for all, in order to mark the common success.

Only Belgian and French civilians, who were not entitled to the War commemorative medal of their own countries, could receive a British Commemorative medal. Those were the ones who got it.... and it was all the more valued that they were not recognised as members of the armed forces of their own countries. It was a nice gesture of fairness from the British to recognise them as having usefully (and dangereously) done their bit and a great compliment (very decent chap, y'know, could be British !). I personnally highly value and have great respect for these BWM to civilians, who acted as allies. What they did was very brave indeed.

Incidentally, there seems to have been quite an exchange of messages on this topic in 2005, to be found in the British medals section of this forum. With lots of useful information, starting with a BWM found in Marrakesh which turned out to have been awarded to a Belgian lady.

Very best regards

Veteran

[dante]

Hello Hendrik and Roel

It is not a surprise that few Belgian military personnel, if any, should be found among the BWM awards. At the end World War 1. Allies decided that they would not exchange commemorative war medals, and the Victory medal was created on a similar design for all, in order to mark the common success.

Only Belgian and French civilians, who were not entitled to the War commemorative medal of their own countries, could receive a British Commemorative medal. Those were the ones who got it.... and it was all the more valued that they were not recognised as members of the armed forces of their own countries. It was a nice gesture of fairness from the British to recognise them as having usefully (and dangereously) done their bit and a great compliment (very decent chap, y'know, could be British !). I personnally highly value and have great respect for these BWM to civilians, who acted as allies. What they did was very brave indeed.

Incidentally, there seems to have been quite an exchange of messages on this topic in 2005, to be found in the British medals section of this forum. With lots of useful information, starting with a BWM found in Marrakesh which turned out to have been awarded to a Belgian lady.

Very best regards

Veteran

Couple of groups to agents, first Belgian Agent (all awards confirmed by Belgian Secret Service Records)

[dante]

Couple of groups to agents, first Belgian Agent (all awards confirmed by Belgian Secret Service Records)

[dante]

French Agent who served on the yser front before becoming an agent part of group "Victor" captured and shot at dawn 27 december 1916 (all awards confirmed by french archives)

[Michael Johnson]

Beautiful groups.

[Jacky]

Indeed, very nice, I like groups where a bunch of foreign (for them ) had been thrown in. So belgians with english/french what ever medals are always nice to see, but vice versa too!!

Very nice groups!

A very striking aspect is that both groups are court mounted, a very english way of mounting!!

Edited May 8, 2007 by Jacky

[Ed_Haynes]

LOVELY groups!!

[Veteran]

Good morning Dante

This group is VERY unusual. Am I right to assume that the BWM is named ? Could it be confirmed by the Roll at Kew? How about the Mention in dispaches?

The combination of awards is strange : Legion of honor + French military medal should normally go with a croix de guerre having at least one palm, and probably other devices as well. The military medal being the highest award for bravery to a non-commissioned fighter (and often only awarded after a series of previous mentions in dispaches), the Legion of honor would have to be awarded after he was promoted to commissioned rank or for further outstanding services after the Military medal (posthumeously ?).

The Victory Medal is the french type and would probably have been worn before the french WW1 Commemorative medal.

The story must certainly be interesting to read. Could we have more?

Thank you for showing this intriguing set of awards. The only explanation for the BWM may well have be, if confirmed, the award of a Mention in dispaches by the British, which would then make it more of a decoration in its own right than a commemorative medal.

Very best regards

Paul

[Veteran]

Good morning Dante

This group is VERY unusual. Am I right to assume that the BWM is named ? Could it be confirmed by the Roll at Kew? How about the Mention in dispaches?

The combination of awards is strange : Legion of honor + French military medal should normally go with a croix de guerre having at least one palm, and probably other devices as well. The military medal being the highest award for bravery to a non-commissioned fighter (and often only awarded after a series of previous mentions in dispaches), the Legion of honor would have to be awarded after he was promoted to commissioned rank or for further outstanding services after the Military medal (posthumeously ?).

The Victory Medal is the french type and would probably have been worn before the french WW1 Commemorative medal.

The story must certainly be interesting to read. Could we have more?

Thank you for showing this intriguing set of awards. The only explanation for the BWM may well have be, if confirmed, the award of a Mention in dispaches by the British, which would then make it more of a decoration in its own right than a commemorative medal.

Very best regards

Paul

[dante]

Good morning Dante

This group is VERY unusual. Am I right to assume that the BWM is named ? Could it be confirmed by the Roll at Kew? How about the Mention in dispaches?

The combination of awards is strange : Legion of honor + French military medal should normally go with a croix de guerre having at least one palm, and probably other devices as well. The military medal being the highest award for bravery to a non-commissioned fighter (and often only awarded after a series of previous mentions in dispaches), the Legion of honor would have to be awarded after he was promoted to commissioned rank or for further outstanding services after the Military medal (posthumeously ?).

The Victory Medal is the french type and would probably have been worn before the french WW1 Commemorative medal.

The story must certainly be interesting to read. Could we have more?

Thank you for showing this intriguing set of awards. The only explanation for the BWM may well have be, if confirmed, the award of a Mention in dispaches by the British, which would then make it more of a decoration in its own right than a commemorative medal.

Very best regards

Paul

All will be revealed, group found in Australia all loose, French medals with the named BWM, it was assumed that they were not related

[dante]

All will be revealed, group found in Australia all loose, French medals with the named BWM, it was assumed that they were not related

Only one Lucian Francois on roll, MID LG 15 Sept 1919, La Medaille de L'Yser Arrete Royal No 15939 du Juillet 1923

[dante]

Only one Lucian Francois on roll, MID LG 15 Sept 1919, La Medaille de L'Yser Arrete Royal No 15939 du Juillet 1923

An for me the most emotive

[love4history]

Museum quality this group! and the story behind it is what we collectors live for to discover

Veteran, what's the picture in your posts of? I can tell it has something to do with the thread.

[Jacky]

All will be revealed, group found in Australia all loose, French medals with the named BWM, it was assumed that they were not related

You found the medals loose and had them remounted?

Which explains the courtmounting style, very unusual for french and belgian groups.

Normally they would have been worn in the swingstyle, which is still used in france.

Nice groups!

Kind regards,

Jacky

[love4history]

Oh Yes, forgot to ask: question for Dante: you mentioned that the medals for the Belgian agent were confirmed by Belgian Secret Service Records. I'm interested in the sources. What source(s) did you use. Do you have anything on paper that you could show us?

thanks

Roel

[Michael Johnson]

Here's the link to his MIC: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...;resultcount=10

[dante]

Here's the link to his MIC: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...;resultcount=10

My source has now retired but I am sure if you write to the Belguim Ministry of Defence they should help, the group is for me the finest in my collection of Intelligence related medals

[Veteran]

Hello love4history

The picture I added to my recent message is the cover of the Register for the BWM kept by the British National Archives at Kew near London. I looked it up two years ago as I was researching a Belgian recipient of the BWM, which I found there.

It tells of many very brave people for whom this "current" medal was indeed the only recognition they received for extremely dangereous work, as the fate of this engine-driver clearly proves.

I hope this answers your question

Best regards

Veteran

[Veteran]

This is for Dante

Wonderful story and excellent documents. This man was an engine-driver for the french railways; he never lived to see his awards. Should he have lived, his group would have been mounted as follows :

Chevalier Legion d'honneur - medaille militaire with BRONZE PALM on the ribbon - French Victory Medal - French War Commemorative Medal - BWM with MID - Belgian Medal for Ypres.

I rather agree that the group would have rather be displayed in rows of 3 - 3 - 1 or possibly 4 - 3.

This is an OUTSTANDING GROUP and I cannot remember seeing anything like it before. Thank you so much for bringing such a remarquable example of the nearly unknown importance of the BWM when awarded to foreigners.

Very best wishes

Veteran