Kriegsmarine My First Post & Opinions Are Welcome

[mlh13]

Hello All,

This is my first post here at GMIC and I must say, I love the site. I have posted pictures of a Kriegsmarine NCO Visor and I would like everyone's opinions on. Just for information, I have posted this visor on WAF and the consensus is not good.

Thank you

Mark

[mlh13]

I apologize...I'm still trying to get acustom to this new site. Here is another pic of my KN NOC Visor for your opinions.

Mark

[Michel]

Hello Mark,

Welcome to GMIC, nice to have a new KM collector.

I have seen photos of your cap on WAF, and read some unplaisant comments.

Of course, it's always difficult to have a definitive opinion if you have not the item in your hands, but I think it is a good KM cap even the sweatband is new and can afraid some people, all the other parts are original.

For information, a regular (removable top) KM petty officer cap has never a cellulo?d.

Regards,

Michel

PS : post more pictures on the KM forum for the other GMIC members.

[mlh13]

Hello Mark,

Welcome to GMIC, nice to have a new KM collector.

I have seen photos of your cap on WAF, and read some unplaisant comments.

Of course, it's always difficult to have a definitive opinion if you have not the item in your hands, but I think it is a good KM cap even the sweatband is new and can afraid some people, all the other parts are original.

For information, a regular (removable top) KM petty officer cap has never a cellulo?d.

Regards,

Michel

PS : post more pictures on the KM forum for the other GMIC members.

Michel,

Thank you very much for the reply and I highly respect your opinion. To be honest with you, after everything that has been said at WAF...the warm fuzzy feeling of this cap's originality is gone. Unfortunately, I do not have enough expierence with KM visors to put my mind at ease especially with how much I paid for this visor. There are too many unanswered questions about this cap for me to sleep soundly at night. With that said, I'm seriously thinking of returning the cap to the dealer on Monday.

Michel, what is your opinion on the wreath? I must admit, the wreath's construction is very sloppy and uneven which I find suspect because the Germans were all about details. Also, does the constuction of the cap's interior raise any concerns for you? The plastic, stitching, etc?

I have put this cap under the black light test and one thing that sticks out (glows) is the edging on the chin strap. The strpa appears to be an immitation leather or perhaps a leather bi-product. Would this be correct? I have two other officer visors that have been looked at by others and have passed the test of original pre 45 manufaturer and these chin straps do not have that "glow".

Regards

Mark

Edited April 14, 2007 by mlh13

[mlh13]

Another pic

[mlh13]

Another Pic

[mlh13]

Another Pic

[mlh13]

Last pic. Please let me know if someone wants a specific picture of the cap.

Thanks

Mark

[Michel]

Mark,

I don't need any other pictures, my opinion is the same, this cap is an original one.

Below a picture of the inside of one of mine to compare the making (Berhnard Pleuzer is a prolific maker for the KM caps).

Regards,

Michel

[mlh13]

Mark,

I don't need any other pictures, my opinion is the same, this cap is an original one.

Below a picture of the inside of one of mine to compare the making (Berhnard Pleuzer is a prolific maker for the KM caps).

Regards,

Michel

Michel,

Thank you for the picture of your cap. Your opinion and the picture you provided is excellent proof that the cap I have is an original. The only thing on this cap that still concerns me is, the wreath. What is your opinion on this? Have you seen this type of wreath before? It looks like it is poorly made and constructed. Can you provide me with a picture of a wreath you have that is the same as mine? I would appreciate that very much.

Michel, thank you very much and I appreciate your help.

Very respectfully

Mark

[gdlasalle]

Mark, this cap is not original. It may have some elements that are original, the eagle for instance. The wreath is sloppy, the thread doesn't even look correct. The uneveness of the wreath, if original, would certainly have consigned it to the reject bin. The sweatband is new, as in new new, maybe recently sewn in. The clear band also it very new looking. An original would certainly have some clouding, some toning. I don't like the look of the wool top, it is at least of a poor manufacture. The underside of the peak gives off a bad sheen. It looks plastic to me, though this could be the photo. All these elements conspire to at least give pause. In my opinion the wreath and the sweatband, at the very least, put this cap into the questionable catagory. I understand you are returning the cap. You should. Get an original that does not have so many red flags.

[gdlasalle]

Just looking at the full front photo. It may be due to the photograph itself but it is evident that the thread on the wreath is washed out, not as golden and deep hued as the eagle. I think this is due to the difference in thread. The wreath looks to be embroidered from ordinary cotton thread.

[gdlasalle]

The chinstrap. I'm not suprised it glows. Why it glows, I don't know why. But, it looks bad and another example of poor manufacture. Bad that it is curling out too. The straps I have on my caps are lovely things. You cannot see the untreated material at the edges, because it's all been stained.

[gdlasalle]

Should I go on?

[gdlasalle]

Ok, I will. This cap is a high end fake. It's high end but not executed well. If the maker had put on an original wreath it might have fooled more people. Then the maker should have aged it a little. Rubbed some of that knap off the top. Aged the sweatband with dirt or something. The peak looks good, but the underside does not. It's nearly good but like most fakes has bad elements.

[gdlasalle]

One more thing. I love the "used" touch to the chinstrap end, on outside of the snap. My caps are 65 year old and none of them are standing out like that.

[Michel]

Don't be impatient GD, I'm French and my english is bad so I need a little time to put a comprehensive answer.

[Gordon Williamson]

Mark,

I agree with Michel. Apart from the sweatband, nothing about the cap itself raises any red flags, typical wartime KM NCO construction for an issue (as opposed to private purchase) cap, down to the lack of celluloid diamonds and the plastic/celluloid band stiffener.

You haven't mentioned, but I assume it does not have a removable top - if it does, view with the top removed would be very useful.

Good NCO caps are rare, it just depends on whether you can live with some doubts about the sweatband possibly having been replaced. Not sure that it has , but its one thing I am not over happy with and if Michel doesn't like the sweatband thats good enough for me - there is no one whose opinion on KM caps I'd value higher than Michel's.

By the way, if you do keep the cap let me know, I have a far better quality Wreath/Cockade in cellion thread which would match the eagle and will be happy to gift it to you.

[KM-SPAIN]

Hello all, I have not seen this in the WAF, but with this pictures I agree with Michel and Gordon and I can not see red flags either, even in the sweatband, but as Michel has told is not easy without having it in your hands.

[Michel]

First and important point, I have no interest with Kai Winkler (as you mentioned to me by PM)

Second point, your opinion is done and you wouldn't change it, even with arguments but I will try to explain for other collectors.

The important point in this discussion is: ?Is it an original cap or not??, the look is not important.

So, we have a Kriegsmarine?s cap that have all the making original criteria, I never seen a fake with all this criteria.

Sadly for this cap, it?s new and unworn.

Now look the different parts of this cap.

It is important to note that photos don?t always give the best view of the general aspect as they tend highlight defaults.

Post 1

Eagle is original and it seems we all agree there.

It is less obvious for the wreath, it seems that there are some ? weakness ? in the rigorous way it should be sewn (we even see the carton board at some places), but it is conform in the details with original wreath, fakes are often missing those details. If these cap was ever worn, time & weather would have move the threads to a more ? homogeneous? definitive position.

Original wreath are more easy to find than eagles, so why a dealer as experimented than Kai Winkler would have take the risk to put a fake wreath knowing it would quickly be detected by knowledgeable collectors.

Concerning the difference in the aspect, it is probably due to the angle of the shot Vs the light intensity.

GD, according to your analyses criteria, if the wreath is fake then the eagle should also be fake as both use the same materials?!

Post 2

Internal blue silk, color and composition appear correct.

Leather sweatband is correctly sewn folded as it should be on the external border..

Post 4

The internal circle of this cap conform to originals, the ? plastic ? has a normal color for a cap in very good condition, don?t look for criteria not linked to the cap.

Silk is pre installed with large sween points with a correct tread, then silk & sweatband are machine sewn directly on the plastic, this type of staple is correct and typical for this type of fabrication.

The ?striures? mark (lignes) on the plastic are also typical.

Post 5

The visor is perfect.

Post 6

This type of chinstrap is not the type most encountered but it has existed (especially for late war visor caps), you have to note the large snap. Regarding the ?used? aspect of it, it is probably due to the ? close examination ? of several persons opening and closing the snap to the point that they have damaged the extremity of the chinstrap.

The mohair is perfect, with again a perfect visor with the usual superior border which conforms to the issued petty officers? visor caps.

Post 7

Nothing special on this pic, general looking is good.

GD, you are invited to post your 65 year old caps (something tells me you will not) and at least a first name as initials are confusing

Mark, you may want to send back the cap but at least it should be because you don?t personally like it but not because it is a fake.

I want to stay open to serious discussion (explanation) in public, but if you have a personnal agenda with me or with this dealer just express yourself.

Regards,

Michel

[mlh13]

Gordon, Michel,

I sincerely appreciate your expierence and opinions on my cap The sweatband appears to be original to the cap. It does not appear to be re-sewn and it has the same wear, or lack there of, as the rest of the cap.

I have made the decision to send the cap back to the dealer. Although I know both of you are the experts in your field when it comes to Kriegsmarine materials and I highly respect your opinions, there are too many conflicts I have with the cap that would prevent me from sleeping soundly at night.

Respectfully

Mark

[guntherprien]

hello

this cap is 100% orginal

its like michel told you

its a schame you sent it back to the dealer

i have exacktly the same ohne but not in this biutifol condition

gp

[nesredep]

hello

this cap is 100% orginal

its like michel told you

its a schame you sent it back to the dealer

i have exacktly the same ohne but not in this biutifol condition

gp

Hello!

I agree.

All the best

Nesredep