Austria-Hungary Military Order of Maria Theresa

[Ian]

Does anyone have any idea on Korn?l Oszl?nyi previous career in the Austro-Hungarian Army?

Thanks,

Ian

[Yankee]

Hello,

actually, it's quite difficult to find any type of original MMThO crosses... I'm feeling a lucky collector, for having had the chance to put a very old Commander's Cross in my collection.

I know that all the original crosses have to be in gold, also the pieces awarded late in the 1st World War. The Ordenskanzlei ordered new crosses to Rothe & Neffe and ordered in the same time to let older pieces from the Order's treasure to be repaired and/or adapted.

Not all the silver-gilt and bronze-gilt crosses are to be considered as fakes, because Rothe and Mayer (and possibly, also Rozet & Fischmeister) made Order's crosses for private purchase.

Many years ago, I've seen a bronze-gilt Knight's Cross with the "star" mark struck on the loop and its quality was the same of a gold piece.

In the later years, some Austrian "creative" people has put on the market gold knight's crosses of the MMThO: such pieces are of fairly good quality but quite different from the original: in any case, many collectors have been deceived and spent a lot of money for a "late XX Century" piece.

It's important to keep in mind that also during WW1 the MMThO was always made with the highest jeweller's quality.

The same for the St. Stephen's Order: yes, this one also was awarded in gold only, until the end of the A-H Monarchy (silver-gilt pieces were also available for private purchase).

Best wishes,

Enzo

Hi Enzo

Thanks for the info if I'm ever lucky enough to find myself a gold example I'll scan to you first. There is a military museum in Vienna not too far from the train station that has dozens upon dozens of these beauties & as I recall with a foto of the recipients. A friend of mine had an interesting example of the Iron Crown from the 1866 war 3rd class cased. The war decoration wreaths was solid gold( no enamel ) and the crown was also solid gold. Would it have been an earlier badge that was reissued with war decoration for the 1866 conflict or was the war decoration wreaths ( solid gold )issued before 1866 maybe the Italian campaigns?

Sincerely

Brian

[Elmar Lang]

Hello Brian,

the museum close to the S?dbahnhof in Vienna is the "Heeresgeschichtliches-Museum"! The place where any collector of Imperial Austrian Orders, Decorations & Militaria can dream about "what I would like to have...".

Now, the Museum has been re-orderd in a more modern way, but in the past there were many carved wood showcases, all full of crosses of the MMThO in its 3 classes... besides other orders, medals, uniforms, flags, etc.

It's still and always a must for us collectors and enthusiasts.

The Iron Crown III Class of your friend, can be a very interesting piece (would it be possible to see a scan of it?). I'm not sure if the first Kriegsdekoration to be added to the Iron Crown should have been without enamel (this was for sure to the Leopold Orden, where the first KD's were wreaths made of a green-toned gold alloy, although exceptions exist...).

Anyways, I suspect that yes, it should be a piece from 1866 (but, I repeat, to see a picture would allow to give a final response).

Best wishes,

Enzo

[Yankee]

Hello Brian,

the museum close to the S?dbahnhof in Vienna is the "Heeresgeschichtliches-Museum"! The place where any collector of Imperial Austrian Orders, Decorations & Militaria can dream about "what I would like to have...".

Now, the Museum has been re-orderd in a more modern way, but in the past there were many carved wood showcases, all full of crosses of the MMThO in its 3 classes... besides other orders, medals, uniforms, flags, etc.

It's still and always a must for us collectors and enthusiasts.

The Iron Crown III Class of your friend, can be a very interesting piece (would it be possible to see a scan of it?). I'm not sure if the first Kriegsdekoration to be added to the Iron Crown should have been without enamel (this was for sure to the Leopold Orden, where the first KD's were wreaths made of a green-toned gold alloy, although exceptions exist...).

Anyways, I suspect that yes, it should be a piece from 1866 (but, I repeat, to see a picture would allow to give a final response).

Best wishes,

Enzo

Hi Enzo

Glade to hear the army museum is still there, had been some time ago that I was there but hard to forget all those Maria Theresa's. Unfortunately I will not have the possibility to send a foto out, he is no longer alive and the badge was sold off at an earlier time. I remember the badge well for it was one of my favorites unfortunately as a student didn't have so much funds to make a offer. I am certain the war decorations was solid gold on both sides of the Eagle not around the shield. I have never seen another like it to this day. Also the badge was not hallmarked which as I understand prior to 1866 or 67 they were not marked. Any possibility the war decorations for the Iron Crown was introduced in the Italian Campaign. Are there documented groups of the Iron Crown w/war decoration being in enamel. If that is the case I'd suspect then the piece that I saw was pre 1866. As I recall there was no enamel inside the crown. About what year did the Austrians replace the design of the badge to the current form.

Sincerely

Brian

[Igor Ostapenko]

Their will be soon an exhebition about this order in Vienna, Austria"250 Jahre Milit?r-Maria Theresien-Orden"21. Juni bis September 2007Kunsthistorisches Museum Wiensee : http://www.ordenskunde.at/ausstellung6.htmlGuy

I want to find katalog of this exhebition -

Ausstellungskatalog zur Sonderausstellung:

"250 Jahre Militär-Maria Theresien-Orden 1757 - 2007"

Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, 21.6. bis 31.10.2007

in: Zeitschrift der ÖGO Nr. 67 (August 2007), farbig bebildeter Ausstellungskatalog zur Sonderausstellung.

Anybody have this katalog ?

[g_deploige]

Dear Igor

You can contact ÖGO

see here there website : http://www.ordenskunde.at/index.html

Guy

[Igor Ostapenko]

Dear Guy,

Thank you !

I sent email to ÖGO two days ago and wait ...

[Igor Ostapenko]

It's a piece in gold, of the type awarded in 1790-1812 approx.; the ribbon is from WW1; there is also the original case of issue from the same time of the ribbon: a typical re-issue of a decoration of earlier manufacture.

I have only few mini's

[Igor Ostapenko]

and this badge ... 17 mm - for ribbon bar ?

[Igor Ostapenko]

On 12/06/2007 at 14:12, Elmar Lang said:

Hello,.

... 

I know that all the original crosses have to be in gold, also the pieces awarded late in the 1st World War. The Ordenskanzlei ordered new crosses to Rothe & Neffe and ordered in the same time to let older pieces from the Order's treasure to be repaired and/or adapted.

 

Not all the silver-gilt and bronze-gilt crosses are to be considered as fakes, because Rothe and Mayer (and possibly, also Rozet & Fischmeister) made Order's crosses for private purchase.

 

Many years ago, I've seen a bronze-gilt Knight's Cross with the "star" mark struck on the loop and its quality was the same of a gold piece.

...

Best wishes,

 

Enzo 

This cross sold few years ago in Ausrtia 

But wat about another cross - it’s copy or 1930’s production ? 

[Igor Ostapenko]

pictures from another forum 

[tifes]

Hi Igor,

 

are you asking about knight-MMTO on your last pictures?  Modern copy from 1990s/early 2000s, probably of Hungarian origin. That first knight-MMTO (sold in Vienna) would be of the same (or similar) provenience. Nothing to do with privately purchased MMTOs in 1920s (awarded after 1918 by MMTO Chapter but without decorations handover; consequently this practice was changed and all after-1918 MMTO recipients were entitles to get their crosses from Arsenal´s deposit).

 

Regards,

 

Tifes     

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

 

I can say that the first of the two MMTO crosses, is a relatively early copy made by Rothe (see the "pointing down" star to the obverse centre medallion), with a wrong suspension ring; the second one, is a much later copy, made in Croatia between 2000 and 2005 ca.

 

Both have been struck with fake, "Sternchenpunze" for non-precious metal.

 

Best wishes,

 

Enzo (E.L.)

[Igor Ostapenko]

Dear Tifes, 

Dear Enzo 

 

Thank You very much !!! ? 

 

I have some copy ??