Heer Austrian in the German Army - Can anyone help with more info?

[Gordon Craig]

SticK pin.... what exactly do these stick pins denote and where they commonly available? Would they be worn on civilian clothing?

JimZ,

These pins were private purchase and readily available for wear on civilian clothing should you have any. The cloth to make clothes with was rationed in Germany from the spring of 1939 and since Austria was a province of Germany from 1938 on would have been rationed there as well.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Another pin I have no clue about...... anyone?

Obverse and reverse

JimZ,

Interesting pin. The German text on the front translates as "be united". There was a strong movement within Austria for many years prior to the German take over in 1938 to unite Austria with Germany. Perhaps this is what this pin refers to.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

As a small deviation from the original topic, I would also love to find some info about <b>Gefreiter Johann Tisch, 5./Gren Regt 849 </b>(as at November 1943) and also if possible some information about his wife whose name I do not have but who was German and was supposedly attached to some German top brass.

A close up of the "stamp damage" has been posted in the preservation section: <a href="http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18349&hl=" target="_blank">http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18349&hl=</a>

JimZ,

I can not give you any info on this individual. That would have to come from the archives in Germany or you could try the sub forum on the WAF dedicated to this type of research. Gen. Rgt. 849 was part of the 282nd Infantry Division. Here is a bablefish translation of the Diivisions history from a Germany Language Forum. It won't be that easy to read but it will give you a rough idea of where this soldier was when he was wounded. The wound badge document indicates the badge was issued by the head of the 282nd Divisions Medical unit which was a normal procedure.

From 15 April 1943, the Division moved to the east and was unloaded in the Kharkov area. On the 6th Division released the Donets Panzer-Division ab. Panzer Division from. The front portion to be transferred ranged from Verkhniy Ssalto Archangelskoje to the Donets. The assumption of authority in this section was made on 25 April 1943. The division remained in the following months as a position-division in this section. After the failed offensive at Kursk (companies Citadel) was the 282nd to Infantry Division to withdraw in August 1943, Kharkov. Because of this withdrawal of the division commander, Major General William Kohler was replaced. The Ia of the division, Lieutenant Colonel chips, took themselves out of fear a court martial life. August 1943 took over the then Colonel Hermann Frenking Division. Nachdem Charkow am 22. After Kharkov on 22 August 1943 had to be cleared to put the division back under heavy fighting on the Merefa position. On 3 September also had to be abandoned this position and the division went back to the Dnieper, from 26-27. September 1943 was passed September 1943. Subsequently, the Division moved into a new position on the south bank of the Dnieper in the line Terijewka - Tschuikalowka - Demurowka across from Kremenchug. On 28 September she was ready for the new section and the front came to a halt. In the following weeks, however, there was also heavy fighting north of Russian assault troops, and on the Halbinsen of Uspenskoe. On 15 Oktober 1943 joined the Red Army and then between Zaporozhye Kremenchug to the attack and reached the first assault Krivoy Rog. This was the first Panzer Army at risk of the enclosure. In the course of this development was the German front from the Dnieper banks be withdrawn into the interior. On 18 Oktober passed the Parlysch Division and was one that severely harassed by Russian units. On 19 Oktober was the division on the march north, reaching the space around and above the bridge head Uspenskoe Tschikalowka. From 20 November 1943 November 1943, the Division attacked again hard, and it was Russian troops to break into the front line of the division. This was followed by a further withdrawal of the division in the Kirovograd area. In January 1944, the Division was transferred to a new kind Division 44th. In the severe winter of 1943-44 in the defensive fighting, the division suffered heavy losses. End of January 1944, the Division is still in the Kirovograd area, northeast of Nowomirgorod. Until early March 1944, the front line of the Division in the area northwest of Kirovograd directly northeast of Novy-Mirgorod had moved. But the enemy's attacks forced the division to a further withdrawal to the west. On 9 März 1944 was the division in Section Nowomirgorod on 20 March 1944 as Lyssaje Gora. On 21 March of the Division crossed the bow, for the first night April 1944 the Dniester. On 3 April 1944 it purchased the Dniester Raut position northeast of Chisinau. On 15 April 1944 April 1944 the Division engaged in combat strength from 2,613 men and a board thickness of 7409 man you has 17 light and 8 heavy machine gun, 9 medium mortars, 6 light infantry guns, 24 light and a heavy field howitzer, and a 2-cm Flak. On 6 May 1944, the Division had a combat strength of 4,435 men and a board thickness of 9239 men from May 1944 was followed essentially position battles in the Dniester Raut position. On 19 and 20 August 1944 the Red Army at various locations on the Dniester Raut position where they could obtain from a focus on Thigina Jassy and local successes. In the night at 22 August 1944 the 282nd Infanterie-Division moved from the front and gathered in the area north and west of Chisinau. The division received the order to achieve the fastest and securing the Prut transitions in Leova and Husi. Die Panzerjäger-Abteilung 282 wurde zur Vorausabteilung und erhielt den Auftrag, am Morgen des 23. The Tank Destroyer Division 282 was the advance party and was commissioned on the morning of 23 August einen Brückenkopf westlich des Pruth bei Dranceni - Targ-Vardria - Sovarleni zu bilden. August a bridgehead west of the Prut in Dranceni - Targ Vardria - to form Sovarleni. The march of the main part of the Division was much more difficult due to road blockages and delays. On 24 August 1944 was the year 850 Infantry Regiment on the march Leova. As peak regiment arrived without contact with the enemy on Sarata - Galbena until the high ground east of Starlinesti that was already occupied by the enemy. The first high places were taken by the regiment in the storm. The units already met with Hancesti on the enemy. The place could be freely fought. With front to the west and southwest by the Division fought on. On 25 August 1944 were able to break through the Russian units Infantry Regiment 850th Any connection with the regiment was lost then. Only a small part of the regiment managed to break through to the Prut. The remaining units of the Division fought their way out of Sarata Galbena-up after Cazangio and were included here by Russian units. Through the enemy's artillery and attack aircraft were high losses. On the evening of 25 August the order was a breakthrough from the boiler in the western and north-westerly direction. This should be done in two spearheads. The division achieved in the first hours of the 26th August 1944 the high ground east of Veinescu. 5.00 against the clock by breaking units have been subject to heavy artillery fire. Only remnants of the division could not reach the Prut. The remainder of the division continued in the night of 27 August This was under the command of the Grenadier Regiment 848, Major Fritz Lange, form a 350-strong battle group. On 28 August was about the battle group on the western bank of the Prut. Finally escaped and the remaining remnants of the Division were to refresh the 76th Infanterie-Division used.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Gordon Craig

[JimZ]

Gordon,

Many thanks for the information you have provided on the original grouping . As you may know these items fall very far from my area of collecting and unfortunately, apart from receiving these from their original owner and his son, I do not know as much as I would like to. Of course I did spend time with the veteran, a very old man when I knew him, but unfortunately, we never really could communicate in a common language.

In so far as the wound certificate is concerned, I believe the veteran to still be alive and I will ask his son if he could provide me with any further information that may tie in to the info you provided.

I am very appreciative of your time and effort!!!

Jim :cheers:

[Gordon Craig]

Belt, bayonet frog, de-nazified Luftwaffe belt buckle and tassle. I believe that the tassle should denote some rank. Any help on this one please? Do these items throw any further light on my guy?

JimZ,

The bayonet frog looks brown which would fit prewar Luftwaffe. The trodellen would normally indicate the company level and is not associated with any specific rank. The colours of the different sections of the ball, and possibly the strap, would be what give the specific unit designation. This is often difficult to discern and people on forums are often asking questions about individual trodellen. The fact that he wore a trodellen indicates he was an NCO. In the German armed forces the enlisted men and junior NCOs were refered to as 'ohne portepee" or without portepee. Senior NCOs were "mit portepee" or with portepee and therefore wore the device in your photos on their walking out dress. Follows the rank increase in your grouping.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited June 6, 2011 by Gordon Craig

[Gordon Craig]

Lining pierced by medal bar. - I know... not that interesting for most!!!

JimZ,

This is a typical wehrmacht uniform of the later war years. The chap that told you this was made from captured Italian cloth is probably correct. After the Italians surrendered in 1943 the Germans captured a lot of cloth material. Both green cloth for service uniforms and cammoflage cloth. The Wehrmacht used a lot of the green cloth to make uniforms and the SS used a lot of the camouflage cloth to make uniforms. Your comments about the tunic being green while the lining etc. is a different colour are a good sign that this tunic was made from green cloth and not dyed this colour. This tunic appears to be made in a factory by tailors rather than field made. The hip pockets and the breast pockets normally line up in a factory made tuinc. They do not in a field made tunic. I have German WWII tunics that are field made that exhibit these misaligned pockets very well. One SS tunic made from Italian cammo cloth and one Heer tunic made from captured Soviet zeltbahn material.

The holes in the sides are for metal hooks to support the belt. Early tunics had straps suspended from under the arms to help distribute the weight. Later tunics did away with these straps as an economy measure.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

First up, his luftwaffe (I believe) bayonet. I am afraid the spring mechanism is jammed and I do not have its proper sheath. Any generous contributor out there with an extra sheath? <img src="http://gmic.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/catjava.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="catjava.gif" />

JimZ,

This is not specifically a Luftwaffe bayonet. It is a private purchase bayonet for wear with the walking out uniform. Some come with slots for a rifle and some do not. In either case they were never meant to be fastened to a rifle. If the bayonet has a slot there is often a coloured piece of felt put in it to inidcate the wearers arm of service. Red would be used in this case for artillery. This particular design is more often associated with the Fire Brigade than the Wehrmacht.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited June 6, 2011 by Gordon Craig

[Gordon Craig]

First up... some photos of him in the Austrian Army.... I BELIEVE?

Again correct me if I am wrong.... and any info on uniforms, weapons etc..... please..!

JimZ,

Correct. These are First Republic Austrian uniforms. I am not conversant with Austrian Field Artillery pieces so I won't attempt to comment on the type used here.

I can not help with the sheath. These are often missing for some strange resason. I have one, without sheath, marked to the Reichsfinanzverwaltungs (RFV)

Regards,

Gordon

Edited June 6, 2011 by Gordon Craig

[Gordon Craig]

Seems more like Artillery than Flak to me. Not even sure he's in this pic!

JimZ,

Interesting foto. The uniforms look like Reichswehr to me. This just a guess by me. The Austrians did wear the M18 style helmet after WWI and without their spefic cap style it is hard to say who these guys are. Note the M18 style helmets and the spurs on the boots. Possibly a cavalry unit? One thing I have noted about groupings from veterans is that they often contain pictures and artifacts that did not necessarily belong to, or were used, by them.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited June 5, 2011 by Gordon Craig

[Gordon Craig]

Men from previous photo front row 1st from right (my man) and rear row 1st from right. Can anyone be identified in this pic? Rank and decoration of officer (front centre)?

JimZ,

What can be identified from this picture relates to the officer in the centre. He wears the collar tab rank of a technical officer. He also wears a sports badge on his left breast pocket. Can not tell anything from his ribbon bar.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited June 6, 2011 by Gordon Craig

[Gordon Craig]

And a single collar lapel missing its brother..... <img src="http://gmic.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />

I was under the impression that four gulls was Oberfeldwebel but should that come with the silver bullion thread around the edge?

I have 3 types of gulls.... these seem to be the aluminium type ones.... I'll post pics of the various ones in this group ......

JimZ,

Four gulls plus the tresse inicate the rank of Stabsfeldwebel, Stabswachmeister, or Sanitatsstabsfeldwebel. The red background, as you already know, is for artillery. I don't see anything in this group to link it to the HGD. These pictured tabs are standard Luftwaffe artillery issue. The HGD wore white collar tabs. HGD Artilleryregiments, Flakregiments and Fuhrer-Flakabteilung wore red piping on these white collar tabs.

Regards,

Gordon

[JimZ]

On ‎13‎/‎05‎/‎2007 at 09:54, JimZ said:

 

A medical bill? But here there is a reference to "Herr Waff. Oberrwm _______" in 1944.... What rank exactly is that...?

Hi Gordon,

What collar patch would denote Waff. Oberrwm and is that below the Stabsfeldwebel rank. That could put some time frame as to the ranks.

Agreed that to the best of my knowledge he was regular flak and not attached to HGD. Its something that cropped up earlier on that made me include that possibility.

Gordon, is there any way we can put together a time frame of sorts from the various bits and pieces as to what ranks were held and when he may have received his medals etc. I tried something of the sort in an earlier post but I am sure it could do with some polishing up.

Thanks

Jim:

Edited September 18, 2018 by JimZ

[JimZ]

JimZ,

This is a typical wehrmacht uniform of the later war years. The chap that told you this was made from captured Italian cloth is probably correct. After the Italians surrendered in 1943 the Germans captured a lot of cloth material. Both green cloth for service uniforms and cammoflage cloth. The Wehrmacht used a lot of the green cloth to make uniforms and the SS used a lot of the camouflage cloth to make uniforms. Your comments about the tunic being green while the lining etc. is a different colour are a good sign that this tunic was made from green cloth and not dyed this colour. This tunic appears to be made in a factory by tailors rather than field made. The hip pockets and the breast pockets normally line up in a factory made tuinc. They do not in a field made tunic. I have German WWII tunics that are field made that exhibit these misaligned pockets very well. One SS tunic made from Italian cammo cloth and one Heer tunic made from captured Soviet zeltbahn material.

The holes in the sides are for metal hooks to support the belt. Early tunics had straps suspended from under the arms to help distribute the weight. Later tunics did away with these straps as an economy measure.

Regards,

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

I was rather pleased to hear that you concurred with the uniform being tailored out of green material. Rick had earlier indicated this as a possible POW suit but as I mentioned, the lining and threads show absolutely no discoloration from dying, which is why I was not really keen on that explanation.

How uncommon are these tunics made out captured material as this green tunic seems to baffle most people, making me think that its not so common to come across them.

You say its a typical wermacht uniform. But is it a typical NCO flak uniform? In the photos, he seems to be wearing a different style of uniform....

Thanks,

Jim :cheers:

[Gordon Craig]

Hi Gordon,

I was rather pleased to hear that you concurred with the uniform being tailored out of green material. Rick had earlier indicated this as a possible POW suit but as I mentioned, the lining and threads show absolutely no discoloration from dying, which is why I was not really keen on that explanation.

How uncommon are these tunics made out captured material as this green tunic seems to baffle most people, making me think that its not so common to come across them.

You say its a typical wermacht uniform. But is it a typical NCO flak uniform? In the photos, he seems to be wearing a different style of uniform....

Thanks,

Jim

Jim,

These tunics are not common. In the main, enlisted men's tunics are rarer than officers tunics. Enlisted men's tunics tended to be worn as work clothes following WWII and when worn out were thrown away.

I used the term Wehrmacht for specific reasons. There is a growing tendancy among collectors to use the term Wehrmacht when they are talking about infantry uniforms when they should be using the term Heer. This tunic could have been issued to anyone in the Wehrmacht although the fliegerbluse would be more common for issue to the Luftwaffe. With the shoulder boards and collar tabs removed it could have ben worn by anyone. I suspect that uniforms made from captured Italian material would have been used to make uniforms in Italy. I have no proof of this however.

Your pictures show this man wearing two different uniforms none of which match the style of the green uniform. In the wedding picture he is wearing the four pocket service tunic. This tunic has a four button front and an open collar. In the other pictures he is wearing the fliegerbluse (flying blouse). This tunic has hidden buttons and is a shorter tunic than the four pocket service tunic. It is of a style specific to the Luftwaffe and was very commonly worn. The green tunic is cut more in the style of an infantry tunic.

I've probably been a bit long winded here but I want to give you as much info as I can in a short space of time.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Hi Gordon,

What collar patch would denote Waff. Oberrwm and is that below the Stabsfeldwebel rank. That could put some time frame as to the ranks.

Agreed that to the best of my knowledge he was regular flak and not attached to HGD. Its something that cropped up earlier on that made me include that possibility.

Gordon, is there any way we can put together a time frame of sorts from the various bits and pieces as to what ranks were held and when he may have received his medals etc. I tried something of the sort in an earlier post but I am sure it could do with some polishing up.

Thanks

Jim:

Jim,

Waff. Oberrwm should stand for Waffenoberwachtmeister which would be the equivalent of Ordannace Sargeant in the U.S. armed forces. It is not a standard abreviation though. As Uwe has already mentioned he does not appear to be wearing the arm badge for this trade. It is not the first time that I have seen a uniform in wear that does not match all of the regulations.

As for time frame of ranks and when the medals would have been acquired, that is doable but it will take me a couple of weeks. I leave for a conference in Toronto this Wednesday and won't be back home until Sunday. The medals are relatively easy. The Austrian Long Service award would have to have been issued in 1938 before the Anschlus. The Wehrmacht longe service award five years later so sometime in 1943. The War Merit Cross? Anyones guess but probably no earlier the 1940/41.

Regards,

Gordon

[JimZ]

Many thanks to UWE and GORDON for the recent info.

I will look forward to trying to compile the info as I would like to present this to the Veteran's son. I know that he has other pictures of his father's and I will some day try to obtain scans of these - although this may have to wait till the next time I visit Austria

Re the tunic, when this was given to me, he had confirmed it as being his. Now whether this meant it was his official uniform or perhaps any other uniform given to him when he was released from his POW camp was a detail I never thought to ask. Of course, those photo albums might hold the key to this (if photos that late into the war even exist).

Its a humble grouping of items really but as I knew the veteran and his son, it means the world to me that I can put some information together and at least, return part of the story back to his son.

Jim :cheers:

[JimZ]

This is a thread that I like to refresh from time to time....and it usually results in some new information. Alas, I am unable to post any new photos as I have not had access to them. However for anyone who has the time to look through this thread and provide more information, I will be most appreciative....Uwe, Gordon, feel free to keep on contributing

Jim :cheers: