PRUSSIAN OFFICER

[mossop]

On the Iron Cross forum I'd made a post concerning the following Prussian Officer but This research forum I guess would be more suited to finding out details of the man himself.

Maybe someone has access to the Rangeliste for the Franco Prussian War period, if so could you check out the following.

The soldiers name is A. Carstensen - a lieutenant of Artillery (he supposedly served at Metz) but I wanted to confirm this. I've later picked him up in the Cape Mounted Rifles in the 1880's as a Lieutenant. The South African Archives have reference to a Adolf Heinrich Carstensen who may be the same man

Any help would be much appreciated

Mossop

[Glenn J]

Hi Mossop,

Sekonde-Lieutenant Carstensen served in the Schleswig-Holsteinisches Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr. 9. Commissioned on 21 Sep 1870, he was awarded the EK2. He moved onto reserve status in the mid seventies with assignment to the 1. Bataillon (Bremen) of 1. Hanseatisches Landwehr-Regiment Nr. 75. He was no longer listed by 1884.

Regards

Glenn

[mossop]

Hi Glenn

Thanks so much for checking this out for me its much more than I expected

Certainly seems like this is the same guy I'm after as everything fits with what I've found about his later service.

Was the initials or first names the same? - I've got a researcher in South Africa checking the South Africa Records so I will pass on this information

Regards

Mossop

[bob lembke]

mossop;

You asked Glenn: "Was the initials or first names the same? - I've got a researcher in South Africa checking the South Africa Records so I will pass on this information."

One difficulty in researching German soldiers is that most sources do not list first names or initials 99% of the time. I think that Glenn is working with Ranglisten, and they never give first names unless there were two officers with the same last name in the same regiment. OR, at least, were often referred to as Schultz I, Schultz II, etc.

Family oral history tells that the postmen (ex-Prussian Army) referred to one of my ancestors, for postal matters, in our village, as "Fuchs III". In civilian life!

However, Glenn has miraculous sources, so one never knows.

Bob Lembke

[mossop]

Hi Bob

Many thanks for you explanation and for asking your SA researcher about this.

I'm pretty sure I have the right man but my problem is that their were two Carstensen's in the Cape Mounted Yeomanry at the same time and both joined the same year. One was a Lieutenant who resigned in 1882, his initials were 'A H' and this is the man I'm looking at - and that I think is the Officer Glenn found. The other who's initials is 'H' supposedly served as a Sgt 1880/81 but went on to become a Major by 1905.

I have Lt A. Carstensens Campaign medal for the Zulu War of 1879, so it would be really quite something to find that he won the Iron Cross aswell!

If I can establish the initials of the Prussian Artillery Lieut I can solve my problem. I need to confirm my 'supposedly'!

Regards

Mossop

[Chris Boonzaier]

If I understand correctly, there were quite a number of ex German soldiers who settled in South Africa in the 1870s, 1880s and who recieved medals for the Zulu wars... may be some interesting stories there....

[mossop]

hi Chris

Yes there were quite a few all German units made up of settlers that fought in the Cape Frontier Wars and several well known personalities in the Zulu War were ex German Army but Carstensen was new to me - I guess well known at the time but he has been lost from history over time. I found mention of him in action in several period books about the 'Gun War' in Basutoland during 1880/81.

I've had Carstensen's medal for years but until the other week I'd never come accross any details of anyone by this name

Certainly some interesting stories.

Regards

Mossop

[bob lembke]

Mossop;

Actually the SA researcher I mentioned was yours. I was quoting your earlier post.

The most common resources for looking up pre-war German officers, like the Ranglisten and Dienstalterslisten, do not have first names, unless two officers with the same last name served in the same regiment at the same time. I may be unfairly passing the ball to Glenn, but he has extraordinary resources. Amazingly, he actually found valuable information on my grand-father, while he was serving as a NCO in the Prussian Artillery in the 1880's. Information on enlisted men is simply generally not available, unless they were as unfortunate as to die in the Great War, but fortunate enough to find a known grave, a less than 50% probability.

Additionally, as many know, a RAF fire-bombing raid on Potsdam in WW II destroyed most of the Prussian archives.

There supposedly is an interesting book by a fellow who was a German officer, and later was a British officer; the book supposedly compares the two armies. When I had the citation I unfortunately did not obtain it, and do not now have the exact citation. The Guardian recently reported at length about a notorious "interrogation" center in central London that operated during WW II and the early Cold War period, and the CO had been a German officer at one time, and a British officer in WW II. On the other hand, the Luftwaffe officer that was in charge of the defenses during the famous US air attack on the Polesti oil fields was named "Douglas Pitcairn of Perthshire"; must be a story there. I know beans about WW II.

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

The name "Carstensen" is, of course, Danish and not German. I myself am a quarter Danish, from intermarraige. In the confused border area between Denmark and Germany, the same area where your officer came from, the border moved several times.

Bob Lembke

[mossop]

Hi Bob

Ah - no problem, this will solve me having to say to my SA researcher that I don't need their help after all. Since Carstensen was with one of the Major Regiments in SA I think I've a good chance finding something.

That is some bit or research by Glenn - re your grandfather. So the lack of papers isn't because they were not kept but more to do with the archives being destroyed. I have a WWII German Soldier I was wanting to research at some point also (NCO knights cross winner) - so all this info your giving me is really useful.

I did think "Carstensen" sounded more Danish so its nice to have it confirmed. So we have a Danish German fighting in South African unit - I wonder where this will go next!

Regards

Justin

Regards

Mossop

[bob lembke]

I have a vague memory of an officer serving in Africa who eventually served in four armies. In fact, I think that it was the grand-father of a woman I dated centuries ago. I think he was Swiss by nationality, and then served in Africa, possibly against Lettow von Vorbeck. (Did I get that right?) That was quite an epic. There is an interesting photo about of a black soldier, a German Askari who was personally associated with Lettow von Vorbeck, and who went with him to Germany after WW I and served with von Vorbeck in the latter's Freikorps, I think as von Vorbeck's driver. There is another epic.

Bob Lembke

[mossop]

How long does the Ranglisten go back, can you for example look for details of an Officer in the Napoleonic Wars?

Regards

Mossop

[bob lembke]

How long does the Ranglisten go back, can you for example look for details of an Officer in the Napoleonic Wars?

Regards

Mossop

Yes, I see Prussian Ranglisten from the 1815 period; of course they are shorter, 60 pages I think, the later ones were about 1500 pages; there also was a shorter edition every year, only about 700 pages, without an index of officer's names, which make them much less useful for research. beware of this when buying one, say, on e-Bay. The later Prussian Ranglisten also covers Wuerttemburg, the XIII Armeekorps. I have about 15, some people have much larger collections. Then there also are the books covering Bavaria, Saxony, etc.

But these books do not give a lot of detail; last name, position in the regiment, often some information on seniority, and sometimes the decorations that they have received. Since the books are organized by units and military organizations, staffs, etc., there also is a lot of info on what the Prussian Army really was. Finally there is a multi 100 page index of officer's names.

Bob Lembke

[Glenn J]

Hi Mossop,

The odd lists are available dating back to that period, for example 1806, 1808 & 1812. The latter I know is available as a facsimile of a handwritten list and not terribly user friendly without an index. The printed lists were published again on an annual basis from 1817 onwards. As Bob alluded to earlier, they can be a little frustrating without giving given names or even initials. It was not until around the turn of the century that even officers in the same regiment of the same rank were differentiated by their Christian names! The earliest list in my possession is 1866.

Regards

Glenn

[mossop]

Many thanks for the explanations on this Bob and Glenn, its much appreciated.

As far as 19th century is concerned I'm more used to researching British Military/Navy where their are in most cases detailed Service records available but I'm pretty much in the dark as far as researching Prussian/States research is concerned.

Regards

Mossop

[Glenn J]

Mossop,

incidentally, who is the Prussian officer you are looking for?

Regards

Glenn

[mossop]

Hi Glenn

Its Second Lieutenant Nicolas Muller of 5.Kurm?rkischen Landwehr Infantry Regiment. I've been trying to do a little research (over time) into his Regiments involments at Rhemis,Ligny, Belle Alliance. but presumed I'd not be able to research him.

Regards

Mossop

[bob lembke]

Its Second Lieutenant Nicolas Muller of 5.Kurm?rkischen Landwehr Infantry Regiment. I've been trying to do a little research (over time) into his Regiments involments at Rhemis,Ligny, Belle Alliance. but presumed I'd not be able to research him.

I assume that you mean Mueller (Umlaut), not Muller or Mueller. There are perhaps 200 of the first, none of the second, and 11 of the third in the 1914 Prussian Rangliste. So a big problem is the common nature od Mueller (Umlaut).

The pre-war Ranglisten carried Reserve and Landwehr officers, the former associated as a reserve officer of his unit, the latter as part of a pool of Landwehr officers listed by the Bizerk (Military District) that he reported to. So with Reserve officers you can usually poke about and find when he did his active duty if you have an assortment of Ranglisten. But the number of men with that name is a killer. Landwehr regiments are not listed. Do you know if he was a Leutnant, Leutnant der Reserve, oder ein Leutnant der Landwehr ? If the guy was minted as a reserve officer during the war you have a big problem, unless he was mentioned in a unit history, or got killed and then filed in a known grave. The 1926 Ehrenrangliste 1914-1918 does not carry reserve officers; if it did it would be as big as the Cairo white pages (telephone book).

Bob Lembke

[Glenn J]

mossop,

a Napoleonic Landwehr M?ller will be extremely problematical. I am unaware of any regimental history from that period for that regiment. Similarly, the 1812 Rangliste as I remember (the handwritten facsimile) only listed regulars.

As an historical footnote, prior to 1867 all non regular officers were termed Landwehr then following the Defence Law of 9 November 1867 the two distinct groups were created - Reserve and

Landwehr

Regards

Glenn

[mossop]

Hi Bob/Glenn

I did think I might have a bit of trouble finding anything on Muller (Muller with Umlaut), not least because of the common name and he is a straight Leutnant.

To be honest I mainly wanted to see if he was entitled to any medals. I have some paperwork of his - Patent, Letter from French city of Noyon,where this officer was city commander - details about the suffering of the French city through German troops 1816. letter with detailed descriptions of this officers service and battles by his CO Oberstleutnant Von Welling battles of: tz,Rhemis,Ligny and Waterloo (Belle Alliance) and others.. - 1863. letter for his 50th year of being officer -studies, letters, so I've a fair amount already but its always good to be able to confirm things in Army lists etc.

As far as his Regiment is concerned I've just been looking at general histories, so although I'm not finding much specific I'm still getting an idea of the Campaigns his Regt were taking part in.

For me this isn't prority research (like Carstensen) but its really good to get advice not to expect too much more.

Regards

Mossop

Edited May 26, 2007 by mossop

[bob lembke]

Mossop;

Sorry, I didn't realize that with Mueller we actually were back in the Napoleonic Wars; I thought that your question about if there were Ranglisten from that era was a stray question. I don't know beans about the period, or even the Prussian Army, but I do recall occasionally seeing Ranglisten from the period, on ZVAB or German e-Bay.

Bob Lembke

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Mossop,

The odd lists are available dating back to that period, for example 1806, 1808 & 1812. The latter I know is available as a facsimile of a handwritten list and not terribly user friendly without an index. The printed lists were published again on an annual basis from 1817 onwards. As Bob alluded to earlier, they can be a little frustrating without giving given names or even initials. It was not until around the turn of the century that even officers in the same regiment of the same rank were differentiated by their Christian names! The earliest list in my possession is 1866.

Regards

Glenn

I saw a couple of printed lists online today (from a shop in Berlin I think), I think it was the 1801 and 180?? priced at EUR270 and EUR2??.

PM me if they are of interest and I will see if I can find them again.

best

Chris

[Dave Danner]

In the Rang- und Quartier-Liste der K?niglich Preu?ischen Armee f?r das Jahr 1823, there is a Sekondelieutenant M?ller listed in the infantry officers of the 3tes Bat. (Marienburgisches) of the 5tes Landwehr-Regiment. No dates of rank are given, but he is the senior Sekondelieutenant. No decorations are listed. He is in the same position in the 1824 Prussian Army ranklist.

[Dave Danner]

In the Rang- und Quartier-Liste der K?niglich Preu?ischen Armee f?r das Jahr 1823, there is a Sekondelieutenant M?ller listed in the infantry officers of the 3tes Bat. (Marienburgisches) of the 5tes Landwehr-Regiment. No dates of rank are given, but he is the senior Sekondelieutenant. No decorations are listed. He is in the same position in the 1824 Prussian Army ranklist.

Here is the rather crappy scan:

[Dave Danner]

Now this might not be the same guy. By 1823 he might have left the service or gone to another regiment. Unfortunately, there are no indexes to names, so I can't look for other M?llers.