PRUSSIAN OFFICER

[Dave Danner]

Ignore my last posts. According to the Stammliste der K?niglich preussischen Armee seit dem 16ten Jahrhundert bis 1840, the 5. Kurm?rkisches Landwehrregiment was redesignated the 24stes Landwehr-Regiment.

The only M?llers I see in that regiment are a Sekondelieutenant of cavalry in 1stes Bat. (Ruppinsches) and the Bataillons-Arzt of 3tes Bat. (Havelbergsches).

Edited May 27, 2007 by Dave Danner

[bob lembke]

Dave;

The Rangliste scan for 1823 is quite interesting. Note that there are two second lieutenants named Pohl, and they are merely distinguished as "1st" and "2nd". 90 years later they at least would give their first names, in parenthesis, after their last name. As I mentioned, in my family village in rural Prussia, the mailmen, probably ex-NCOs, even after WW I, knew and referred to one of my ancestors as "Fuchs III".

Bob Lembke

[Glenn J]

The Prussian War Ministry Order No. 865/11. 96 K.M. dated the 13th of February 1897 titled "Distinguishing between same named Officers" finally abolished the practice of using numbers to differentiate between same named officers in the same rank in the same unit. It stipulated that from henceforward officers of the same name and rank in the same unit (including officers of the same branch and rank in a Landwehrbezirk) should be distinguished by their given name.

This alleviated somewhat the confusing picture in the larger Landwehrbezirks where one could perhaps have as many as 5 or 6 Sekonde-Lieutenant M?llers

Regards

Glenn

[Chris Boonzaier]

Dave;

The Rangliste scan for 1823 is quite interesting. Note that there are two second lieutenants named Pohl, and they are merely distinguished as "1st" and "2nd". 90 years later they at least would give their first names, in parenthesis, after their last name. As I mentioned, in my family village in rural Prussia, the mailmen, probably ex-NCOs, even after WW I, knew and referred to one of my ancestors as "Fuchs III".

Bob Lembke

I have a couple od EK docs where the men are refered to as "Gefreiter Muller II" or "Schutze Schmidt II"

[mossop]

Thanks for the offer to pass on those Ebay link Chris - to be honest, although it would be really nice to find if Muller could be identified I'm not really wanting go to such an expense (probably would need them again)

Dave thaks for taking the time to look for Muller, looks like this is going to be pretty tough to research (man and unit)- it looks like he's left the service by 1819

All really interesting posts!

Regards

Justin

[Glenn J]

Justin,

I will be able to look at a copy of the 1817 Rang- und Quartier-Liste in a couple of weeks time. That being the case I will see if he is still listed then and if he had any awards. Similarly "Das Preu?ische Heer in den Jahren 1814 und 1815" has a Landwehr Rangliste from 1814 appended which I will check.

Regards

Glenn

[mossop]

Thats great Glenn, I'll keep my fingers crossed that you can see him.

Many thanks

Justin

[Dave Danner]

Justin,

I will be able to look at a copy of the 1817 Rang- und Quartier-Liste in a couple of weeks time. That being the case I will see if he is still listed then and if he had any awards. Similarly "Das Preu?ische Heer in den Jahren 1814 und 1815" has a Landwehr Rangliste from 1814 appended which I will check.

Regards

Glenn

I should be able to look at the 1817 Rang- und Quartier-Liste by Thursday. On a few days' notice, I can probably get any of the following:

• Ranglisten der k?niglich preussischen Armee - 1804, 1808, 1812, 1817-1914
• Ranglisten des deutschen Reichsheeres - 1923-31
• Ranglisten der deutschen Kriegsmarine/Reichsmarine - 1874-1901, 1904, 1905, 1907-12, 1914-16, 1926, 1929-32, 1935-38
• Ranglisten von Beamten der Kaiserlich deutschen Marine - 1901-10
• Ranglisten der K?niglich S?chsischen Armee - 1840-1914
• Milit?r-Handbuch des K?nigreichs Bayern - 1831, 1840, 1855, 1864, 1869, 1873, 1875, 1876, 1879, 1883, 1885, 1887, 1889, 1891, 1893, 1895, 1897, 1909, 1911, 1914
• Verordnungs-blatt des K?niglich bayerischen Kriegsministeriums, 1856-1872, 1874-1878, 1880-1884, 1886-1907,1909-1920
• Schematismus der Oesterreichisch-Kaiserlichen Arm?e - 1790, 1801-4, 1807, 1809, 1811
• Milit?r-Schematismus des ?sterreichischen Kaiserthums - 1815-19, 1822-33, 1835-48, 1850-58, 1860/1861, 1861/1862, 1863, 1865-68
• Kais. k?nigl. Milit?r-Schematismus - 1869/1870-1889
• Schematismus f?r das kaiserliche und k?nigliche Heer und f?r die kaiserliche und k?nigliche Kriegsmarine - 1890-1914
• Schematismus f?r das ?sterreichische Bundesheer und die Bundesheeresverwaltung - 1931, 1933, 1936
• Ruhestands-Schematismus der ?sterreichisch-ungarischen Armee - 1913
• Schematismus der K. K. Landwehr und der K. K. Gendarmerie der im Reichsrathe vertretenen K?nigreiche und L?nder - 1879, 1881-1889, 1891-1914
• Ranglisten der K. K. Landwehr und der K. K. Gendarmerie - 1914, 1916-1918

Let me know if you need anything specific.

[bob lembke]

Dave;

Are the Ranglisten you just cited from the collection of the New York Public Library? It is a magnificent institution, although I have not used it in a long time, since I have spent little time in NYC since I went off to university, several centuries ago.

I know that the NYPL has a good collection of Ranglisten, and I gather that they are held in New Jersey in storage, and you must order them ahead of time in order to have them on hand when you visit. Do you have any practical advice as to this process, so one does not waste a visit to New York? (Although a day in the NYPL could hardly really be a waste.)

Or does some other institution hold that breath-taking collection?

Bob Lembke

[mossop]

Wow Dave thats some amount of references you have available to you - thanks for letting me know and for your offer.

Great stuff!!!

Regards

Justin

Edited May 29, 2007 by mossop

[Dave Danner]

Dave;

Are the Ranglisten you just cited from the collection of the New York Public Library? It is a magnificent institution, although I have not used it in a long time, since I have spent little time in NYC since I went off to university, several centuries ago.

I know that the NYPL has a good collection of Ranglisten, and I gather that they are held in New Jersey in storage, and you must order them ahead of time in order to have them on hand when you visit. Do you have any practical advice as to this process, so one does not waste a visit to New York? (Although a day in the NYPL could hardly really be a waste.)

Or does some other institution hold that breath-taking collection?

Bob Lembke

Most are NYPL, and I'm on my way there now. The NYPL website has information about their copy service and ordering copies of parts of documents, but the price can be expensive and you generally need to know already what pages. I believe the website might help you to arrange for ordering in advance from the offsite storage site, in which case the books could be waiting when you get to New York. There are a fair amount of good items on microfilm and in local storage too, though.

If you do it yourself, photocopying is 15 cents a page. I managed to copy all the descriptions of MMJO actions from Bayerns Goldenes Ehrenbuch last week. I only wish I had had the time to get all the Gold and Silver Bravery Medal descriptions.

[Dave Danner]

No M?llers in the Kurm?rksche Landwehr-Regimenter in the 1817 Rang- und Quartier-Liste. However, it does not appear to list all regimental officers.

[Glenn J]

Dave,

having not looked at a printed Rang- und Quartier-Liste from this early before I am not in a position to offer clarification but perhaps only the regular permanent staff officers or "Stamm" personnel of Landwehr formations were listed. I will check out "Das Preu?ische Heer in den Jahren 1814 und 1815" next week in Potsdam.

Regards

Glenn

[Dave Danner]

Dave,

having not looked at a printed Rang- und Quartier-Liste from this early before I am not in a position to offer clarification but perhaps only the regular permanent staff officers or "Stamm" personnel of Landwehr formations were listed. I will check out "Das Preu?ische Heer in den Jahren 1814 und 1815" next week in Potsdam.

Regards

Glenn

Very tiny. Size of a small paperback. The 1804 version was even more fragile.

[mossop]

Shame you couldn't find him Dave but thanks for checking him out anyway. I'll keep my fingers crossed that Glenn has some luck.

Again thank you both for taking the time to look at this for me.

Regards

Mossop

[Glenn J]

Justin,

I managed to look at a micro-fiche copy of "Das Preu?ische Heer in den Jahren 1814 und 1815" in the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin. Although not terribly illuminating in this case it did confirm the presence of not one but three Seconde-Lieutenant M?llers in the 5. Kurm?rkisches Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment as at 2 September 1814. In the usual Prussian fashion they are listed as M?ller I, II & IV respectively (don't know what happened to M?ller III)! None are shown with awards at this date.

Regards

Glenn

[mossop]

Hi Glenn

Well he must have been one of these Muller's so if none have Awards at least this doesn't complicate things and start wishful thinking from me (unless of course he is Muller III!). I guess some large battle were still to come though!

Many thanks for checking this out.

Regards

Mossop

[mossop]

Just heard from my researcher in South Africa and she is convinced that Sekonde-Lieutenant Carstensen is the same Officer of the Cape Mounted Rifles who's medal I have - a great result!. Among other things she's found his death certificate which mentions him serving in the CMR's as well as previously serving in the Prussian Artillery.

Thanks everyone for your help in getting the German information.

For display purposes (as he may well not have got the medal) I'm going to get a 1870-71 War medal but I wonder if anyone could tell me which Army Schleswig-Holsteinisches Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr. 9 served in so that I can work out what Bars he would have got. I've checked online but not alot is coming up.

Many thanks

Mossop