Soviet My First Time...

[Rich]

Just received this through the post. First one I've bought and would appreciate any comments before committing to getting it researched.

The ribbon actually looks a lot older and more faded and seems to be made from silk weave (very much the feel of old British medal ribbons).

Edited June 4, 2007 by Rich

[Rich]

And the reverse...

154709 - around 1942/3?

The screw fitting is marked with cyrillic script.

Edited June 4, 2007 by Rich

[Guest Rick Research]

154,738 was awarded on 30 January 1943 so I'd say yours came from the same batch at the same command.

No, sorry, in years of entering documented numbers with dates, couldn't have added all that data about WHICH (aaaaghh) unit.

But that early a number is very definitely worth researching.

[Alfred]

Just a guess.

Leningrad Front

regards

Andreas

Edited June 4, 2007 by Alfred

[Rich]

Just a guess.

Leningrad Front

regards

Andreas

Thanks; not too hot on the Eastern Front.

154,738 was awarded on 30 January 1943 so I'd say yours came from the same batch at the same command.

No, sorry, in years of entering documented numbers with dates, couldn't have added all that data about WHICH (aaaaghh) unit.

But that early a number is very definitely worth researching.

Excellent, thanks for that. Small world if they did come from the same batch, perhaps for the same action.

It was an ebay purchase and only cost a shade above ?20 ($40), so thought I'd ask opinions before I ordered the research (if you know what I mean ).

I've read they were rather prized medals among the soldiery. Did these bravery medals hold their value, or become more commonly issued as the War progressed, as was the case with the Iron Cross?

Edited June 4, 2007 by Rich

[Guest Rick Research]

All the Soviet awards degraded after it was clear that they would win, but this is still an "outcome in doubt" period award.

In this time period, what was handed out was usually UNDER-rewarded. A Valour Medal from this period would easily be for action that would have earned a Red Star later.

[Rich]

All the Soviet awards degraded after it was clear that they would win, but this is still an "outcome in doubt" period award.

In this time period, what was handed out was usually UNDER-rewarded. A Valour Medal from this period would easily be for action that would have earned a Red Star later.

Thanks again. That should point to there being an interesting citation out there.

[Guest Rick Research]

Aha! FOUND it! (This is why CATALOGS are eternal-- try this with online sales )--

Igor Moiseyev sold 154,738 with research in August 2000--

for a member of 396th Anti-Tank Exterminating Regiment, Leningrad Front during the 900 days siege, in that private's case for point blank infantry close support.

Now I doubt the same REGIMENT gave out 30 medals on the same day, but DEFINITELY for the middle of the long Leningrad siege.

[Rich]

Aha! FOUND it! (This is why CATALOGS are eternal-- try this with online sales )--

Igor Moiseyev sold 154,738 with research in August 2000--

for a member of 396th Anti-Tank Exterminating Regiment, Leningrad Front during the 900 days siege, in that private's case for point blank infantry close support.

Now I doubt the same REGIMENT gave out 30 medals on the same day, but DEFINITELY for the middle of the long Leningrad siege.

Cheers for that; narrows it down massively.

I'll have to read-up on Leningrad - not too familiar with the Eastern Front.

I take it Leningrad is a 'good' action, much like the Somme is with British WW1 items?

Do you think this would mean a more comprehensive citation than a later issue?

Thanks again (and I think the time it takes to get the research done will seem a lot, lot longer than it actually is!)

Rich

Edited June 4, 2007 by Rich

[Guest Rick Research]

Citations are funny. Sometimes they read like a Tom Clancy chapter, other times they are so terse it's almost "He did good--give him this medal." That's part of the "gamble" in getting research done.

I've had... I've lost track ... awards researched. Only ONE was a fizzle-- Mekh in the researched awards subforum-- and even that was so BAD it is good.

Ask for the Award Record Card and the citation, and if this was given to an enlisted man, that will be as complete as you can get. If it went to an officer (Lieutenants, mostly) there will be a personnel record.

[Rich]

Thanks Rick,

I've emailed the guy to look for those.

[Rich]

The Research.

Sorry about the wait. Been horrendously busy this year!

The resolution of the Brigade command.

Officer in command of the 148th I.I.B.

Lieut.-Colonel Gerusov (signature)

Military commissar

Battalion Commissar (<- this is the rank) Agafonov (signature)

September 2, 1942

The resolution of the Corps command.

Worthy of Govement award - Bravery medal.

(Typed:) Officer in command of the 8th G.I.C. (Guards Infantry Corps)

(Wrote with a pen:) Officer in command of the Corps

Guards Major-General Zakharov (signature)

(Typed:) Military commissar

(Wrote with a pen:) Corps commissar

Guards Regiment Commissar (<- this is the rank) Pestov (signature)

September 18, 1942

The resolution of the Army Military Soviet

The resolution of the Front Military Soviet

The resolution of the Awarding Commission of P.D.C. (People's Defence Committee)

(All are empty because of relatively low rank/class of the award.)

Note on awarding.

Awarding with a Bravery Medal by the West Front order No. 01113 11.10.42 (October 11, 1942)

(This inscription was erroneously wrote in the previous position - "The resolution of the Awarding Commission of P.D.C. (People's Defence Committee)".)

--------------------

Registration Card

Order Book /Russian B/ No. 620162

1. Surname - Alekseev

2. Name and patronymic - Nikolaj Ivanovich

3. Military rank - Lieutenant Junior

4. Sex - male

5. Year of birthday - 1911

6. Birthplace - Leningrad region, Berkovskij district, village Aleksandrovka

7. Party - member of the Communist party

8. Education - elementary/primary

9. Nationality - Russian

10. From what time in the Red Army - (empty)

11. Service place (unit) and post at the moment of awarding - the 148th Independent Infantry Brigade, Starshina

12. Working place and post at the present - do not work

13. Home address of awarding person - Tomsk region, Tomsk-town, Vodyanaya street, 11

Awarding list. (Recommendation to rewarding).

Surname, name and patronymic - Alekseev Nikolaj Ivanovich

Military rank - Starshina (the rank between Sergeants and Warrant Officers) of Medical Service

Post and unit - acting doctor's assistant (feldsher),

the 4th Independent Infantry Battalion of the 148th Independent Infantry Brigade

Recommended to reward - Bravery Medal

1. Year of birthday - 1911

2. Nationality - Russian

3. From what time in the Red Army - July 22, 1941

4. Party - not member of the party

5. Participation in the battles (where, when) - Patriotic War, West Front, August 1942

6. Whether has wound and contusions during Patriotic War - no

7. What awards has received earlier - no awards

8. By what Military registration and enlistment office it was mobilized - Tomsk town

Military registration and enlistment office, Novosibirsk region

9. Home address of the person, who represented to rewarding, and his family -

Krasnodar krai (territory), Achinsk district, Simonov rural (country) soviet, village Suchkovo

Kameneva Tatiana Nesterovna (probably the name of the nearest relation)

=========================================================

Brief, concrete statement of a personal fighting feat or merits.

=========================================================

During the battles of August 4 - 25 (he) replaced killed military doctor's assistant and,

together with Comrade Avrov, gave medical support to 487 wounded - fighting-men, commander officers and (military) political workers of the 148th, 153d, 129th brigades and the 26th division. The work of medical company was admitted good and careful. August 18, 1942, during the enemy's air raid and bombing atack against village Sukharevka, the headquarters and high-ranks officers of the 25th tank brigade were in danger, under the bombing. Comrade Alekseev was the first person who rushed and helped the brigade HQ commander officers and political workers. He saved a child from the fire and took 4 wounded commander officers away from the fire. At the HQ officer's of the brigade request he recommended to rewarding.

Officer in command of the 4th I.I.B. the 148th I.I.B. (signature)

Military commissar of the 4th I.I.B., senior political instructor /Milyaev/ (signature)

None too shabby.

Opinions re. the citation?

[Guest Rick Research]

One wonders what a child was doing in combined staff headquarters.

Like all early (pre-Stalingrad victory) awards, this is UNDER-rewarded compared to later awards inflation. This is easily a Red Star's "worth," and could easily have been higher--if the lowly Comrade's rank had been higher--

rushing into a burning building, stuffed with idiotically massed multiple command staffs, and grabbing wounded out of flames and collapsing walls?

If he'd been a Major and this was 1944, a Patriotic War 1st Class might have found him.

Did you get his Awards Record Card for the REST of his awards?

[Rich]

One wonders what a child was doing in combined staff headquarters.

Like all early (pre-Stalingrad victory) awards, this is UNDER-rewarded compared to later awards inflation. This is easily a Red Star's "worth," and could easily have been higher--if the lowly Comrade's rank had been higher--

rushing into a burning building, stuffed with idiotically massed multiple command staffs, and grabbing wounded out of flames and collapsing walls?

If he'd been a Major and this was 1944, a Patriotic War 1st Class might have found him.

Did you get his Awards Record Card for the REST of his awards?

I believe I may have it, but the p/copies are not with me at present and I forgot to scan all of them. Typical! Should be able to get them fairly soon.

You don't think an element of hyperbole involed in the citation? E.g. him doing something very similar, but his CO wanted to give him best chance to get a gong?

PS: Should have copy of other side of registration card - do recall there was some writing with an official stamp on the reverse, with the medal information(?). Must be there, otherwise medal couldn't have been found, I suppose.

Edited July 21, 2008 by Rich

[Guest Rick Research]

No. Under-stated, probably. That seems to be the pre-tide-turning rule. Any 1942 award is half what the same thing would have gotten in 1944, and always the lower the rank, the less recognition for the Comrade.

This guy ran INTO a burning building full of stupid staff officers who should not have been gathered in a single target (very summer of 1941 mistake) and saved their butts-- something the Russian army has always liked as a reason for awards, from Tsarist times onward--that and remaining on the field while wounded.

He should have gotten a Red Star. I'd have given him a Red Star if he'd hauled my dark blue breeches out of an inferno.

[Rich]

No. Under-stated, probably. That seems to be the pre-tide-turning rule. Any 1942 award is half what the same thing would have gotten in 1944, and always the lower the rank, the less recognition for the Comrade.

This guy ran INTO a burning building full of stupid staff officers who should not have been gathered in a single target (very summer of 1941 mistake) and saved their butts-- something the Russian army has always liked as a reason for awards, from Tsarist times onward--that and remaining on the field while wounded.

He should have gotten a Red Star. I'd have given him a Red Star if he'd hauled my dark blue breeches out of an inferno.

Thanks.

It makes a change to have an award like this for saving lives, as opposed to taking them. I also wonder what the kid was doing there, as well.

I assume the place is in/around Leningrad. Couldn't find anything cos it seems to be Russian for 'market' (or similar) and came up with lots of random(ish) google hits. Interested if anyone has info. on what was going on on the day in question, and the unit itself.

[Alfred]

Is this the unit he served? 148th Rifle Brigade ?

Than the action took place at the western front. 20th Army

best regards

Andreas

[Rich]

Looks like it - thanks Andreas!

[Rich]

Did you get his Awards Record Card for the REST of his awards?

Managed to get hold of the p/copied side I forgot to scan at the time. The medal # is on there and (pretty certain, because the cyrillic script corresponds to other papers I have for a recipient of the MMM), he was also awarded MMM #157709 on 11.10.42.

No other awards listed - no campaign stuff or anything.

[Guest Rick Research]

Maybe it is a wartime version of the pre-Awards Record Card. Post whatever you've got. The inconsistencies on Soviet paperwork could have kept Gotcha "Organs" going for another century. There are often small additions in details from one to another-- even if they often contradict other entries!

[Rich]

Thanks - forgot to pick up the p/copies and bring them back with me, though; just jotted down the details.

It was only a small bit of info. on the back of the section detailing his personal details: a couple of lines for awards, then a blank space and a handwritten date (1944? maybe '47 - quite scruffy) and official stamp.

[Ed_Haynes]

Can you get those photocopies? Without them the medal is diminished by 85%!!

[Rich]

Can you get those photocopies? Without them the medal is diminished by 85%!!

You mean of the finalised Award Card (I have the extant p/copies from archives in my possession, just not at my present location)? I think I omitted to have that done during the preliminary research. Would that include all his medals (including campaign awards)?

I was also interested to note that he was commissioned between the act and the investiture of the Bravery Medal. I assume that was related to the award?

Edited July 27, 2008 by Rich

[Ed_Haynes]

You mean of the finalised Award Card (I have the extant p/copies from archives in my possession, just not at my present location)? I think I omitted to have that done during the preliminary research. Would that include all his medals (including campaign awards)?

I was also interested to note that he was commissioned between the act and the investiture of the Bravery Medal. I assume that was related to the award?

OK, I was confused. If he was commissioned, it might be worthwhile getting full research, including the service record. It sound like you only have pieces.

[Guest Rick Research]

But first we need to SEE what you DO have. :catjava: