Imperial Dude

[Sal Williams]

I got this pic of this guy in my travels in Europe. Nothing special just it is a super thick black card, odd size and really neat photograper studio mark.

[The Capstone]

Does anyone know what year this may have been taken? It is in very nice condition, Sal. The clarity is fairly impressive.

Thank you for posting,

Ryan

[Guest Rick Research]

With two cap cockades, this dates after 1897. But even into the World War, recruits were often issued pre-war blue uniforms in training.

Given the D?sseldorf photographer and contrasting piping on the Brandenburg cuffs, this MAY be Infantry Regiment 53, which hd blue around the buttons patch on red cuffs.

[Sal Williams]

Wow, I never expected that much info from that pic! Rick, that's the one I was talking about.

Best, Sal

[Bob Hunter]

Tsh, tsh, tsh, wrinkles in his blouse. Not cool.

[Chip]

He also appears to have a Winker patch on his right sleeve.

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

Hey Sal! Chip is goooooooooooooood!

You didn't notice, and I didn't notice!!!

[attachmentid=12050][attachmentid=12051]

Actual size of that insignia is about the tip of a ballpoint pen!

[Sal Williams]

Hey Sal! Chip is goooooooooooooood!

You didn't notice, and I didn't notice!!!

[attachmentid=12050][attachmentid=12051]

Actual size of that insignia is about the tip of a ballpoint pen!

Didn't notice??? I don't even know what it is Please tell!

[Guest Rick Research]

It's a signalmans specialty patch. The only one I have a photo of is on the OTHER arm, and cut out, not on a patch backing--

here is a Saxon Hussar NCO with it

[attachmentid=12154]

Now, medical personnel also wore their patch on the upper right sleeve, so I would venture to speculate that cavalrymen wore it on the opposite arm because they had blade weapons qualification "stripes" worn on their right arms: he is also wearing his markmanship lanyard from the "wrong" side to non-cavalry units. Here's a closeup, note no patch backing:

[attachmentid=12155]

[Chip]

Sal,

It's a signallers patch. Semaphore, I suspect, to me more precise. It's a private purchase piece. The issue examples had square flags. One myth is that these patches with the swallow tail flags are only for cavalry units (like the tails on a lance pennant). As plainly shown in your picture, they were worn by anyone who could afford one.

Chip

Edited September 30, 2005 by Chip

[Chip]

Rick,

What I especially like about your photo is the one year volunteer shoulder cords. Very unusual to see. Overall a photo with a lot of appeal!

Chip

[Sal Williams]

Thanks Chip, but the photo has found a more worthy home now! Why do you believe Semaphore? My only understanding of the Semaphore is from reading the Horatio Hornblower books and it was described as some giant thing with waving metalic arms. how do they work anyways??? Is it elactric or tugs on cord like morse code? very interesting indeed!

you Imperial cats are a knowlegable lot! Always fun learning from you folks!

Best, Sal

Ricky can we beilieve your theory to be correct? Fairly certain? it makes sense to me.

[Sal Williams]

Does anyone know what year this may have been taken? It is in very nice condition, Sal. The clarity is fairly impressive.

Thank you for posting,

Ryan

Hi Ryan, i would have answered you but I have no idea I just let the wizards work thier magic!

[Chip]

Sal,

I don't believe that any machine is involved here. The Winker was trained to communicate by positioning a pair of flags in various configurations to represent letters of the alphabet and numbers. It was a line of sight thing and was limited to the distance at which it could be clearly seen by the person on the other end, be it by the naked eye or by binoculars or other some device.

Chip

[Mike Dwyer]

Sal,

I don't believe that any machine is involved here. The Winker was trained to communicate by positioning a pair of flags in various configurations to represent letters of the alphabet and numbers. It was a line of sight thing and was limited to the distance at which it could be clearly seen by the person on the other end, be it by the naked eye or by binoculars or other some device.

Chip

Sal,

The semaphore Chip is talking about looks like this (US Coast Guard semaphoreman in action!)

Mike

[Bob Hunter]

Time was when all navy/coastguard signalmen could handle semaphores. Now it is just another archaic skill.

Rick, I really like the Saxon Hussar photo. Those old glass plates were super!

[Sal Williams]

What I read about in horato hornblower was this and had no flags.

http://www.napoleonguide.com/semaphore.htm

But by WW1 they didn't use this? It was flags? I would have thought the Napoleonic one was the more advanced one. This is very interesting!

Best, Sal

[Leib Garde]

Now, medical personnel also wore their patch on the upper right sleeve, so I would venture to speculate that cavalrymen wore it on the opposite arm because they had blade weapons qualification "stripes" worn on their right arms: he is also wearing his markmanship lanyard from the "wrong" side to non-cavalry units. Here's a closeup, note no patch backing:

Sorry, still figuring out how this works.

I believe the "weapons qualification stripes" were called Fechterabzeichen (Fencing proficiency indicator chevrons) and were worn on the right sleeve. There were several different types indicating different ranks of proficiency, i.e. first class, second class etc., however, I do not have any pictures of them and would greatly appreciate being able to see what they looked like. So does anyone have any of the chevrons and can show me what they look like?

Blessings,

Patrick

Edited March 6, 2009 by Leib Garde

[Naxos]

Sorry, still figuring out how this works.

I believe the "weapons qualification stripes" were called Fechterabzeichen (Fencing proficiency indicator chevrons) and were worn on the right sleeve. There were several different types indicating different ranks of proficiency, i.e. first class, second class etc., however, I do not have any pictures of them and would greatly appreciate being able to see what they looked like. So does anyone have any of the chevrons and can show me what they look like?

Blessings,

Patrick

Have a look Patrick: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3401...echterabzeichen

Did you know that the Fechterabzeichen was awarded for proficiency with the lance (not the sword)

Regards, Hardy

[Leib Garde]

Have a look Patrick: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3401...echterabzeichen

Did you know that the Fechterabzeichen was awarded for proficiency with the lance (not the sword)

Regards, Hardy

Thank you Hardy,

I have learned so much from this forum.

I have two Questions. First: if the award was bestowed by the commander of a cavalry regiment, does that mean it was limited to only Uhlan Regiment's or to any cavalryman in any regiment regardless whither they used the lance as their primary weapon?

Second: My father told me that his Grandfather was an expert with the saber and wore some kind of stripes indicating such (He referred to it as a Fechterabzeichen) but obviously he was mistaken, so my question is what type of badge/stripes would be worn if the cavalryman was proficient with the sword in fencing and saber?

Blessings,

Patrick

Edited March 10, 2009 by Leib Garde

[Naxos]

I have two Questions.

First: if the award was bestowed by the commander of a cavalry regiment, does that mean it was limited to only Uhlan Regiment's or to any cavalryman in any regiment regardless whither they used the lance as their primary weapon?

Second: My father told me that his Grandfather was an expert with the saber and wore some kind of stripes indicating such (He referred to it as a Fechterabzeichen) but obviously he was mistaken, so my question is what type of badge/stripes would be worn if the cavalryman was proficient with the sword in fencing and saber?

Hi Patrick;

In 1890, Wilhelm II. introduced the lance as a weapon for all cavalry formations (Dragoner, Husaren, J?ger z. Pferde, Chevaulegers, ...etc.)

The Fechterabzeichen was not limited to Ulanen since all cavalry formations carried the lance after 1890.

I'm not aware of an authorized fencing (saber) proficiency badge, perhaps Chip can answer that question.

Regards, Hardy

[Chip]

According to Pietsch's "Formations- und Uniformierungsgeschichte des Preu?ischen Heeres 1808 bis 1914", 1890 was the year of the introduction of the steel lance, but the AKO for the arming of the entire cavalry with the lance was dated June 2, 1889. I also cannot think of any insignia that was given out for proficiency with a sword.

Chip

[Leib Garde]

According to Pietsch's "Formations- und Uniformierungsgeschichte des Preu?ischen Heeres 1808 bis 1914", 1890 was the year of the introduction of the steel lance, but the AKO for the arming of the entire cavalry with the lance was dated June 2, 1889. I also cannot think of any insignia that was given out for proficiency with a sword.

Chip

Hardy and Chip, The Collective Brain Trust here is awesome, I appreciate your knowledge.

My Great Grandfather was Max Alfred Siegel, he was an NCO in the 1st Zug of the Leibgendarmerie and he retired after about 20 years of service to the Kaiser (from about 1878 to 1898... we have the exact dates but they slip my mind at this moment). Max lost his right eye in a Schlager Duel on October 20, 1893. His right eye was replaced with a glass eye at that time and became his renommierschmiss. This may be why Dad though the Fechterabzeichen was for fencing. Max was very proficient with saber and told him many stories about dueling. We do not know what cavalry unit he was in prior to becoming a Leib Garde which may tell us when he earned it or not.

Max came to the USA on September 1, 1904 after fighting in Africa (during the Boar War) 1900-1903 as a Boar Volunteer and attempting to homestead in Brazil after retirement with a Land Grant from the Kaiser. Max kept his German Citizenship until his death on February 22, 1952.

Blessing,

Patrick

Edited March 11, 2009 by Leib Garde

[Naxos]

Quite an adventurer and maverick!

Your Great-Grandfather was one of the Kaiser's personal body guards.

Leibgendarmerie-Regiment 1. Zug "Leibgarde des Kaisers"

Do you have any photos of Max during his military service?

Hardy

Edited March 11, 2009 by Naxos

[Leib Garde]

Quite an adventurer and maverick!

Your Great-Grandfather was one of the Kaiser's personal body guards.

Leibgendarmerie-Regiment 1. Zug "Leibgarde des Kaisers"

Do you have any photos of Max during his military service?

Hardy

Max's eldest daughter Ann (my Grandmother) kept a hand painted photo of him in his uniform on her mantel, it was the only one that I had ever seen. When she passed away in 2002 at the age of 96, Dad went and settled her estate and does not know what he did with the picture. He believes he inadvertently put it in a box that was being thrown out and not in the stuff that was going into storage. Thus I do not have any pictures of Max while he was in military service.

However, my brother and I found a picture of a Leib-Garde on pickelhaubes.com forum in which someone claims it is his uncle. When the photo was shown to my father, he immediately recognized it as his Grandfather. I then have made a photo comparison with some pictures of Max and I must conclude that it is my Great Grandfather. I submit the following PowerPoint presentation and ask that you decide.

Sorry the upload failed, not enough available space.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Leib Garde