Heer Is There Any Info on Johanniter Orden Holders Out There to ID a Tunic?

[DonC]

Hi All -

Here's a scan of a Holter's tag in a Recruiting Hauptmann Waffenrock. Interesting in that he was originally a Cav guy as evidenced by the Rittmeister tag. The 'Rock has a Johanniter Order sewn to it. Any way to trace the guy based on the JH, or is it too common of an "award"?

As always, any help appreciated!

Don

[Guest Rick Research]

Ohhhhkay.

What do you mean "recruiting?" All orange piped?

Good news is there was only ONE. Bad news is he was a retired Imperial officer who was NOT active duty Wehrmacht so the tunic was either as a reserve officer or zD.

Mecklenburg Dragoon Regiment 17

Leutnant 18.8.08 Z2z with the Reuss younger line Honor Cross 3rd Class before the war

Oberleutnant 25.2.15 V16v

Rittmeister 28.11.17 P

Nooooooooooooobody else.

I'd expect a Mecklenburg cavalry officer of his rank to have had at least two sets of pinback loops for his 1914 EK1 and Friedrich Franz Cross 1st Class. What kind of medal bar and pinback awards loops are there?

[DonC]

Hi Rick -

Orange piped recruiting Waffenrock to Wehrkreis II. Loops for two pin-back awards and five loops for what looks like a pretty long ribbon/medal bar, plus of course the cloth Johanniter Order. 'Rock is dated 1936. Potential retread or creative use of a tailor's label???

Don

[Guest Rick Research]

I bet he was a zur Disposition officer.

These were guys back in uniform but semi-retired. He doesn't show in the January 1939 Rank List, so he may have been back out of the army by then, because the zDs do show up in the 1939 List but in no others.

The loops would match nicely. If he was simply retired and wearing the CURRENT uniform in the rank he was retired in (more common than you'd suppose for old officers who never served a day in their lives in the Wehrmacht), it would have been cavalry yellow.

So my guess is he was in his home district on half pay.

Zur Disposition guys generally did not get promoted beyond one bump up, but did accrue Wehrmacht long service time andget the long service awards. He'd have gotten 12 and 4 right way in October 1936 for his old army service if he was on zD duty.

Then if he switched out of recruiting back into cavalry he'd have put this tunic away and never worn it again. Somewhere out there is probably a cavalry major one when he was in a Pferdemusterungskommission or some such employment.

[DonC]

Thanks, Rick. Figure he made Leutnant at 20, that would make him about 48-50 in 1936. If he didn't make the 100000-man Reichswehr, he could potentially have joined up as a part-timer when the Army expanded again.

Could I ask what the following mean?

Leutnant 18.8.08 Z2z with the Reuss younger line Honor Cross 3rd Class before the war

Oberleutnant 25.2.15 V16v

Rittmeister 28.11.17 P

As always, muchas gracias for your help!

Don

[Guest Rick Research]

Nope, he wasn't back in as a retread Erg?nzungsoffizier (E). Or he was gone by January 1939-- we forget that people just ... died back then of things which are no longer fatal.

That's why I suspect he was zD, "part time." Wasn't on "active part time" in January 1939-- not on that Seniority List.

The weird suffix letters and numbers are seniority within the officers promoted to that rank on that date. So Herr V16v was forever junior to Herr V15v but got to lord it over V17v. They started with no suffix, then single alphabet letters, then double alphabet letters, than double alphabet letters separated by numbers. So Lieutenants can be found during WW1 with very high suffixes because HUNDREDS were all promoted on the same day. Imagine a bunch of Oberleutnants sorting themselves out by who was Same Date F, Tt, W3w, A26a and so on!

Under the Reichsheer and Wehrmacht they used simple straightforward numbers, so somebody could be Oberstleutnant 1.7.42 #351 or whatever.

These suffixes just help FIND them on the printed lists.

[DonC]

Alrighty, then - to the tunic itself!

There were six things that really fascinated me about this tunic - first, it was absolutely stone mint - not a nip, rip or stain. Second, it is named -Rittmeister von Doering. Third - the tailor is Holters, and I love the quality of their uniforms. Fourth - it has the Johanniter Order, which I have always loved for its simplicity and beauty (and it helped to positively ID the owner, because, as Rick has kindly pointed out, he was the only von Doering to receive the JO). Fifth, it was tailored in April 1936 - so it is a very early Waffenrock. Finally, if you look closely at the breast eagle, you will see the head faces the wearer's right shoulder, the opposite of what is normally encountered and something that was standardized later in 1936 - I have never seen one of these on an officer's eagle before - only on EM eagles and Belt buckles.

Hope you enjoy the pics!

Don

Edited July 5, 2007 by DonC

[DonC]

X

[DonC]

Y

[Ulsterman]

wow!

Now THAT is a tunic! I really like that one-GREAT uniform.

[Eric Stahlhut]

what's up with that ek1? is it a good one?

[DonC]

what's up with that ek1? is it a good one?

Repro all the way, Eric - I put my limited funds into the uniforms themselves!

Don

[Scott]

Outstanding - congratulations on a great find!

[Guest Rick Research]

This von D?ring MUST have been a WW1 wartime Leutnant der Reserve in a cavalry regiment. By an amazing coincidence, the ONLY trace of him I find is on the same page, same Defense District Command of the 12 October 1937 Seniority List as a fellow I have award documents for:

Hans Behncke had ALSO been a Leutnant der Reserve in a Mecklenburg cavalry regiment. Although apparently ALL (E) Captains were called "Hauptmann," they were indeed "Rittmeister" if cavalry or train.

There is no listing for vD in the January 1939 Seniority List.

I hope he will sort himself out by first name and WW1 unit/rank data in the Mecklenburg-Schweriin WW1 award rolls now being worked on.

[DonC]

It is amazing to me that 70 and 80 years after the fact more and more information is still coming to light. Thanks for remembering this old post, Rick! Now I know vD was still kicking into 1937...

Don

This von D?ring MUST have been a WW1 wartime Leutnant der Reserve in a cavalry regiment. By an amazing coincidence, the ONLY trace of him I find is on the same page, same Defense District Command of the 12 October 1937 Seniority List as a fellow I have award documents for:

Hans Behncke had ALSO been a Leutnant der Reserve in a Mecklenburg cavalry regiment. Although apparently ALL (E) Captains were called "Hauptmann," they were indeed "Rittmeister" if cavalry or train.

There is no listing for vD in the January 1939 Seniority List.

I hope he will sort himself out by first name and WW1 unit/rank data in the Mecklenburg-Schweriin WW1 award rolls now being worked on.

Edited November 27, 2008 by DonC

[Naxos]

I think I found him

Major Wilhelm Konrad Karl Rodrigo (Wilko) von Doering

Born: 17-Jul-1890 in Potsdam

Baptism: 7-Aug-1890

Died: 14-May-1938 in Deutsch Krone

Occupation: Offizier, Gutsbesitzer

On May 2, 1921 in Schochwitz/Halle he married Mechthild Elisabeth Alice Anna von Alvensleben

Born: 18-Jul-1898 in Ulm

Died: 16-Jun-1979 in Westerland/Sylt

The marriage produced five children.

Regards, Hardy

Edited November 27, 2008 by Naxos

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch: I do believe you've got him! All matches up against the still missing first name confirmation. If he was promoted on the same time schedule as Behncke, he would have JUST amde it to Major for a month or three when he died.

BRAVO!!! :cheers:

[Naxos]

... he would have JUST amde it to Major for a month or three when he died.

That would explain why the rank on his Rock wasn't upgraded.

Hardy

[DonC]

Amazing. Thank you, hardy. The Herr Hauptmann now has a Christian name and final rank. Do you have any information on other awards he mayhave received?

Don

That would explain why the rank on his Rock wasn't upgraded.

Hardy