Fake insignia of the Order of Michael the Brave

[Carol I]

Just spotted this fake badge in the window of a medal dealer. Asking price: 1000 EUR.

Obverse

[Carol I]

Reverse

[paul wood]

All I can think is there must be some real suckers around, a fake of that quality shouldn't fool a visually impaired person. Ugh!!!!

Paul

[Carol I]

Another badge that was on eBay some time ago.

Obverse

[Carol I]

Reverse

[paul wood]

Does any one know where these fakes are coming from.

Paul

[Carol I]

Does any one know where these fakes are coming from.

I don't, but nevertheless it would be useful to gather images of all known models of fakes.

[922F]

Somewhat similar "thick" breast and pinback [with frosted reverses] badges came out of Spain in the 1980s. Probably on order for an auction house now out of business. However, the Spanish ones had better detailing, and finer metal work [pinback anyway]. Carol I, have you seen examples of the current Romanian Michael the Brave insignia and, if so, how do they compare?

[paul wood]

Somewhat similar "thick" breast and pinback [with frosted reverses] badges came out of Spain in the 1980s. Probably on order for an auction house now out of business. However, the Spanish ones had better detailing, and finer metal work [pinback anyway]. Carol I, have you seen examples of the current Romanian Michael the Brave insignia and, if so, how do they compare?

I know (certainly until recently) Cejalvo would make any order you wanted (a bit like Rothe in the 50's). The pieces were of good quality and where quite expensive so it was only worth making fakes of very rare orders One of the most famous German fakers of all time was having duds made in Katmandu (where I presume that lack of health and safety meant they could produce old fashioned style enamel). I suspect given the present political climate in that country production has all but ceased.

Paul

[Carol I]

Somewhat similar "thick" breast and pinback [with frosted reverses] badges came out of Spain in the 1980s. Probably on order for an auction house now out of business. However, the Spanish ones had better detailing, and finer metal work [pinback anyway].

Here is an image (not very successful unfortunately) showing the thickness of the badge. Does it look like one of the Spanish ones you mentioned?

[Carol I]

Carol I, have you seen examples of the current Romanian Michael the Brave insignia and, if so, how do they compare?

As far as I know, none were awarded this far and I wonder whether any were officially produced. Anyhow, given the quality of the new awards, I would not be surprised if some of the fakes would look better.

On the other hand I have seen the image of the first class star below that was on sale on eBay some time ago. It is made according to the descriptions in the regulations of the order, but the seller had some other dubious looking badges which made me wonder whether it is a fantasy badge or an unofficial one made with original dies prepared for future awards. I really hope that new awards would look better than this.

[Carol I]

The reverse of the above:

[Carol I]

I know (certainly until recently) Cejalvo would make any order you wanted (a bit like Rothe in the 50's). The pieces were of good quality and where quite expensive so it was only worth making fakes of very rare orders One of the most famous German fakers of all time was having duds made in Katmandu (where I presume that lack of health and safety meant they could produce old fashioned style enamel). I suspect given the present political climate in that country production has all but ceased.

Thanks for this piece of information. Do you know whether they made any Romanian orders? Is there any way to tell them apart from the originals?

[922F]

Greetings Gents!!

Now we BEGIN TO TREAD in deeply troubled waters!! Vaguery to obscure!!! As you both KNOW a certain royal reprobate exercised (in both a traditional and modern meaning) in Portugal & Spain until his death in the '50s--one could (& SOME DID!) visit his casket draped with a royal standard at an odd church! An old time collector [well, 1960s-2000s] snagged a couple of this fellow's (whose corpse + maybe another?... was/were returned to Bucharest recently) decorations "awarded" to a certain Spanish person. Maybe a Count related to the present King of Spain....??? One of these decorations is a so-called merit order--clearly of 1950's Celjavo or Portugese make!! This particuliar Spaniard did not get a Michael the Brave!

I've heard that both the 1950s Portugese and Spanish heads-of-state received Grand Crosses of Michael the Brave (!), the Star of Romania and the Crown of Romania plus the House Order from this "unnamed royal" who received particular exemptions and honors from them. Never been able to verify these claims.... Some other folk got awards of the same HOUSE and general merit odor, er order, though in lesser grades. An ID point--those GC and neck badges are the typical smaller Spanish size and have a typical Spanish cravat loop. Stars have other "non-characteristic" features, like a Spanish type decorated pin... Nonetheless, they are of terrific 1950s type workmanship!

Story was that Callous Carol [oops!] would "decorate" someone who had "assisted" him--and there's some alleged bastard offshoot "child" now in his 60s-70s who continued (s) the practice! Trouble was that C did not provide insignia--just a "brevet". So....hono (u) rees had to either buy old badges or commission new ones--and the likely source-----Celjavo (Madrid) and/or da Costa (Lisbona). I have (personally) a lot of respect for many of the individuals associated with those firms. However, in the "business world" once you have made the dies.......

In similar vein, I can state with complete certainity that Celjavo was the OFFICIAL SUPPLIER for the royal Bulgarian Order of St. Alexander in the 196-70s thru early 1990s. Their insignia of that period is quite distinct as they copied pieces with brilliants but generally did not add the brilliants so there is a Danilo type starburst around the centers. Plus the distinctive Bulgar crown was not rendered in the same manner as former manufacturers. I am also fairly confident that Celjavo can produce any degree of that Bulgarian order to your specification even today!!

As to the German (oops!! again, but what the hell!) auction house that had fake Michael the Brave badges and pinbacks made to their order in the 1980s, their pinbacks were at least somwhat thinner than the one Carol I illustrates. An actual example, rather than a photo, probably was the exemplar for the 1980s copies. The value of the blue enamel is, if not exactly, very close to Carol I's examples. To me, the over all style of the piece illustrated hints at modern Romanian or Czech {Eastern Europe} make. Easily, I could be wrong. If you have Kai Meyer Collection photos, you can see both very likely original pinbacks and fakes. Kai himself owned a mdal manufacturing firm and besides his distinctive Prussian Crown and Red Eagle (replacement, SIC!) stars may have had a line of Romanian Star Orders.....at any rate he always had an awful lot of lst class sets with too many sword combinations for sale!!

PS--Other than Kathmandu, one can have [for our times] excellent insignia made in Lima, Bangkok or Singapore, besides less savory places. A friend claims Ulaan Bator has great workmanship and low prices. Bangkok is cheaper but like Singapore or Lima sometimes still (formerly) used both lost wax, mercury transfer gilding, and lead pigment methodology.

[Carol I]

Now we BEGIN TO TREAD in deeply troubled waters!! Vaguery to obscure!!! As you both KNOW a certain royal reprobate exercised (in both a traditional and modern meaning) in Portugal & Spain until his death in the '50s--one could (& SOME DID!) visit his casket draped with a royal standard at an odd church! An old time collector [well, 1960s-2000s] snagged a couple of this fellow's (whose corpse + maybe another?... was/were returned to Bucharest recently) decorations "awarded" to a certain Spanish person. Maybe a Count related to the present King of Spain....??? One of these decorations is a so-called merit order--clearly of 1950's Celjavo or Portugese make!! This particuliar Spaniard did not get a Michael the Brave!

I've heard that both the 1950s Portugese and Spanish heads-of-state received Grand Crosses of Michael the Brave (!), the Star of Romania and the Crown of Romania plus the House Order from this "unnamed royal" who received particular exemptions and honors from them. Never been able to verify these claims.... Some other folk got awards of the same HOUSE and general merit odor, er order, though in lesser grades. An ID point--those GC and neck badges are the typical smaller Spanish size and have a typical Spanish cravat loop. Stars have other "non-characteristic" features, like a Spanish type decorated pin... Nonetheless, they are of terrific 1950s type workmanship!

Story was that Callous Carol [oops!] would "decorate" someone who had "assisted" him--and there's some alleged bastard offshoot "child" now in his 60s-70s who continued (s) the practice! Trouble was that C did not provide insignia--just a "brevet". So....hono (u) rees had to either buy old badges or commission new ones--and the likely source-----Celjavo (Madrid) and/or da Costa (Lisbona). I have (personally) a lot of respect for many of the individuals associated with those firms. However, in the "business world" once you have made the dies.......

In similar vein, I can state with complete certainity that Celjavo was the OFFICIAL SUPPLIER for the royal Bulgarian Order of St. Alexander in the 196-70s thru early 1990s. Their insignia of that period is quite distinct as they copied pieces with brilliants but generally did not add the brilliants so there is a Danilo type starburst around the centers. Plus the distinctive Bulgar crown was not rendered in the same manner as former manufacturers. I am also fairly confident that Celjavo can produce any degree of that Bulgarian order to your specification even today!!

As to the German (oops!! again, but what the hell!) auction house that had fake Michael the Brave badges and pinbacks made to their order in the 1980s, their pinbacks were at least somwhat thinner than the one Carol I illustrates. An actual example, rather than a photo, probably was the exemplar for the 1980s copies. The value of the blue enamel is, if not exactly, very close to Carol I's examples. To me, the over all style of the piece illustrated hints at modern Romanian or Czech {Eastern Europe} make. Easily, I could be wrong. If you have Kai Meyer Collection photos, you can see both very likely original pinbacks and fakes. Kai himself owned a mdal manufacturing firm and besides his distinctive Prussian Crown and Red Eagle (replacement, SIC!) stars may have had a line of Romanian Star Orders.....at any rate he always had an awful lot of lst class sets with too many sword combinations for sale!!

PS--Other than Kathmandu, one can have [for our times] excellent insignia made in Lima, Bangkok or Singapore, besides less savory places. A friend claims Ulaan Bator has great workmanship and low prices. Bangkok is cheaper but like Singapore or Lima sometimes still (formerly) used both lost wax, mercury transfer gilding, and lead pigment methodology.

Thanks for this very informative (and scary) post.

Last spring on eBay there was the badge below with a certificate, said to have been bestowed to Maurice Couve de Murville, France's Minister of Foreign Affairs between 1958 and 1968. According to the description, the document was dated 14.5.1968. Without seeing an image of the certificate I have thought that the items in the set were erroneously paired (an old commander's badge of the Order of the Star of Romania with a certificate for the third class of the Order of the Star of the Socialist Republic of Romania), but in the light of the information above... On the other hand, the date of the award was some 15 years after the death of the unnamed royal making private bestowals...

Does this badge have the Celjavo or the da Costa particular features? How common was it for a French government official to receive unofficial awards? I think the French law is quite strict on this issue, but maybe it does not apply in this case.

[922F]

The illustrated badge may be by Resch (very late, the ribbon loop, center detail and cross enameling suggest this), Souval (again, the thin ribbon loop, suspension crown detail and lighter green central wreath enamel) or Kai Meyer. Kai may have bought some Souval dies (he was very closed mouth about this) or had Souval make the stuff he retailed and who knows where Souval's dies came from. I'm not near exemplars nor am I really sure. Spanish (and Portugese?) made stuff has no chevalaiver work under the red enamel and the wreath enamel is darker green. Portugese (?) pieces have fine detailing along the edges of the cross. [n.b. A number of Rothe dies went at auction a couple of years ago and of those a few Serb ex-Rothe dies were later offered on eBay.]

As to Couve de Murville, I'd expect him to have an Order of the Star of the Socialist Republic of Romania but, as foreign minister something higher than 3rd class. Fairly sure that he visited Romania several times in his official capacity . I'd try a google search to see if he may have had a Crown Order from the "old regime" too. I've forgotten what he did before WW II, but a 1930-40s award might not be out of the question. Some of the other decorations offered in that eBay post were pre-1950s. So maybe a mix-up of docs and badge?

After retirement, who knows what Couve de Murville would have "been awarded", or would have accepted.... There are many examples of individuals "accepting" awards, like Eisenhower's Order of St. Denis of Zante or his several Orders of Malta, without really being aware of what they are. And yes, French law now is rather strict on acceptance and wear in public of "non-official" awards but what "consenting adults do in the privacy......" is completely open. For example, "pseudo" Orders (like those awarded by the Montezuma-Grau emperor of Mexico) have installations at prestigious locales in Paris with full media coverage.

"Pseudo" "royal claimants" may send brevets and sometimes hardware of their awards to high ranking people to "legitimate" their own gongs to the general public. Right now I cannot recall the name of the guy who claimed to be C's either son or nephew who is/was awarding decos lately but Stair Sainty's site likely has that information.

Hope this helps!

[Carol I]

The illustrated badge may be by Resch (very late, the ribbon loop, center detail and cross enameling suggest this), Souval (again, the thin ribbon loop, suspension crown detail and lighter green central wreath enamel) or Kai Meyer. Kai may have bought some Souval dies (he was very closed mouth about this) or had Souval make the stuff he retailed and who knows where Souval's dies came from. I'm not near exemplars nor am I really sure. Spanish (and Portugese?) made stuff has no chevalaiver work under the red enamel and the wreath enamel is darker green. Portugese (?) pieces have fine detailing along the edges of the cross. [n.b. A number of Rothe dies went at auction a couple of years ago and of those a few Serb ex-Rothe dies were later offered on eBay.]

Thanks for these interesting details. If anyone has images to illustrate these differences, please post them (perhaps in a new thread to avoid hijacking this one on fakes of the Order of Michael the Brave).

As to Couve de Murville, I'd expect him to have an Order of the Star of the Socialist Republic of Romania but, as foreign minister something higher than 3rd class. Fairly sure that he visited Romania several times in his official capacity . I'd try a google search to see if he may have had a Crown Order from the "old regime" too. I've forgotten what he did before WW II, but a 1930-40s award might not be out of the question. Some of the other decorations offered in that eBay post were pre-1950s. So maybe a mix-up of docs and badge?

After retirement, who knows what Couve de Murville would have "been awarded", or would have accepted.... There are many examples of individuals "accepting" awards, like Eisenhower's Order of St. Denis of Zante or his several Orders of Malta, without really being aware of what they are. And yes, French law now is rather strict on acceptance and wear in public of "non-official" awards but what "consenting adults do in the privacy......" is completely open. For example, "pseudo" Orders (like those awarded by the Montezuma-Grau emperor of Mexico) have installations at prestigious locales in Paris with full media coverage.

According to Wikipedia, before war Maurice Couve de Murville was an inspector of finances and then director of finances in the Vichy regime. Then, in 1968 he was successively Foreign Minister, Minister of Finances and Prime Minister. At the date of the award mentioned in the certificate (14 May), he was still foreign minister, so it probably referred to an official award like the Order of the Star of the Socialist Republic of Romania. I would therefore be inclined to believe the hypothesis of a mix-up of items. The question whether the commander's cross was also his from the time as a Vichy official is interesting, but open for debate.

"Pseudo" "royal claimants" may send brevets and sometimes hardware of their awards to high ranking people to "legitimate" their own gongs to the general public. Right now I cannot recall the name of the guy who claimed to be C's either son or nephew who is/was awarding decos lately but Stair Sainty's site likely has that information.

Carol II had a son from his marriage with Zizi Lambrino, Carol Mircea Lambrino, who died last year. Mircea also had a son, Paul, who is currently trying to attract attention onto his origins, but support for his cause is fading. Paul brought to Romania some of Carol II's awards for the 2003 funeral at Curtea de Argeş, but I did not hear of him conferring any awards.

[Carol I]

Coming back to the original topic of this thread, here is another model of fakes.

[Carol I]

Another example of a fake model presented above, this time with ribbon.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo 922F

with regards your Post number 14, (and future Posts) can you post, without the purple colour and font-type, and the small size, as its extremely difficult to read, it looks better and easier on the eye like this,

Greetings Gents!!

Now we BEGIN TO TREAD in deeply troubled waters!! Vaguery to obscure!!! As you both KNOW a certain royal reprobate exercised (in both a traditional and modern meaning) in Portugal & Spain until his death in the '50s--one could (& SOME DID!) visit his casket draped with a royal standard at an odd church! An old time collector [well, 1960s-2000s] snagged a couple of this fellow's (whose corpse + maybe another?... was/were returned to Bucharest recently) decorations "awarded" to a certain Spanish person. Maybe a Count related to the present King of Spain....??? One of these decorations is a so-called merit order--clearly of 1950's Celjavo or Portugese make!! This particuliar Spaniard did not get a Michael the Brave!

I've heard that both the 1950s Portugese and Spanish heads-of-state received Grand Crosses of Michael the Brave (!), the Star of Romania and the Crown of Romania plus the House Order from this "unnamed royal" who received particular exemptions and honors from them. Never been able to verify these claims.... Some other folk got awards of the same HOUSE and general merit odor, er order, though in lesser grades. An ID point--those GC and neck badges are the typical smaller Spanish size and have a typical Spanish cravat loop. Stars have other "non-characteristic" features, like a Spanish type decorated pin... Nonetheless, they are of terrific 1950s type workmanship!

Story was that Callous Carol [oops!] would "decorate" someone who had "assisted" him--and there's some alleged bastard offshoot "child" now in his 60s-70s who continued (s) the practice! Trouble was that C did not provide insignia--just a "brevet". So....hono (u) rees had to either buy old badges or commission new ones--and the likely source-----Celjavo (Madrid) and/or da Costa (Lisbona). I have (personally) a lot of respect for many of the individuals associated with those firms. However, in the "business world" once you have made the dies.......

In similar vein, I can state with complete certainity that Celjavo was the OFFICIAL SUPPLIER for the royal Bulgarian Order of St. Alexander in the 196-70s thru early 1990s. Their insignia of that period is quite distinct as they copied pieces with brilliants but generally did not add the brilliants so there is a Danilo type starburst around the centers. Plus the distinctive Bulgar crown was not rendered in the same manner as former manufacturers. I am also fairly confident that Celjavo can produce any degree of that Bulgarian order to your specification even today!!

As to the German (oops!! again, but what the hell!) auction house that had fake Michael the Brave badges and pinbacks made to their order in the 1980s, their pinbacks were at least somwhat thinner than the one Carol I illustrates. An actual example, rather than a photo, probably was the exemplar for the 1980s copies. The value of the blue enamel is, if not exactly, very close to Carol I's examples. To me, the over all style of the piece illustrated hints at modern Romanian or Czech {Eastern Europe} make. Easily, I could be wrong. If you have Kai Meyer Collection photos, you can see both very likely original pinbacks and fakes. Kai himself owned a mdal manufacturing firm and besides his distinctive Prussian Crown and Red Eagle (replacement, SIC!) stars may have had a line of Romanian Star Orders.....at any rate he always had an awful lot of lst class sets with too many sword combinations for sale!!

PS--Other than Kathmandu, one can have [for our times] excellent insignia made in Lima, Bangkok or Singapore, besides less savory places. A friend claims Ulaan Bator has great workmanship and low prices. Bangkok is cheaper but like Singapore or Lima sometimes still (formerly) used both lost wax, mercury transfer gilding, and lead pigment methodology.

Many thanks Kevin in Deva.

[Carol I]

Another fake model for the first class of the order:

[heusy68]

Thanks for this very informative (and scary) post.

Last spring on eBay there was the badge below with a certificate, said to have been bestowed to Maurice Couve de Murville, France's Minister of Foreign Affairs between 1958 and 1968. According to the description, the document was dated 14.5.1968. Without seeing an image of the certificate I have thought that the items in the set were erroneously paired (an old commander's badge of the Order of the Star of Romania with a certificate for the third class of the Order of the Star of the Socialist Republic of Romania), but in the light of the information above... On the other hand, the date of the award was some 15 years after the death of the unnamed royal making private bestowals...

Does this badge have the Celjavo or the da Costa particular features? How common was it for a French government official to receive unofficial awards? I think the French law is quite strict on this issue, but maybe it does not apply in this case.

Hello Sir,

I'am the person who bought this commander of Order of the Star 2nd type from the Maurice Couve de Murville auction by Spink in april 2006.I do not keep communist award document,and by evidence there could have been a mistake as the document for Order of the Star 2nd Class (communist) didn't matched the Commander which was a Carol II.But you have to know that before WWII Maurice Couve de Murville had already a high position in the administration and he got a few commander & officers from half dozen of countries before WWII.You can check the Spink catalogue online (I guess still probabely available on their website).

Most strange is that the communist award document,I removed it from e-bay before the end because a belgian fellow called me to purchased it as direct sale.As this person is a good fellow I said "yes" to him and he bought it.

By the way the Commandor I bought is 100 % genuine and romanian made with its case of issue.

Maybe Maurice Couve the Murville throw away the communist Order of the Star he got in the 60ies after the revolution in 1989.But one thing is sure,none of the few awards given to him prior to WWII were with their award document.

Emmanuel

[Carol I]

Thanks Emmanuel for the update on this old thread. It seems that my first guess (erroneous pair) turned out to be true.

[heusy68]

Hello Sir,

I'am the person who bought this commander of Order of the Star 2nd type from the Maurice Couve de Murville auction by Spink in april 2006.I do not keep communist award document,and by evidence there could have been a mistake as the document for Order of the Star 2nd Class (communist) didn't matched the Commander which was a Carol II.But you have to know that before WWII Maurice Couve de Murville had already a high position in the administration and he got a few commander & officers from half dozen of countries before WWII.You can check the Spink catalogue online (I guess still probabely available on their website).

Most strange is that the communist award document,I removed it from e-bay before the end because a belgian fellow called me to purchased it as direct sale.As this person is a good fellow I said "yes" to him and he bought it.

By the way the Commandor I bought is 100 % genuine and romanian made with its case of issue.

Maybe Maurice Couve the Murville throw away the communist Order of the Star he got in the 60ies after the revolution in 1989.But one thing is sure,none of the few awards given to him prior to WWII were with their award document.

Here is the reverse & hallmark close up of that Commander awarded to Maurice Couve de Murville.

The 4 hallmarks are : "44" then "HW" for Henry Weiss the manufacturer,then a hard to read (maybe 35 or 55 or something else),then "a crown".

I have all my cases stored in a different place,and sorry I cannot take 2 hours just to look for a case.

Emmanuel

[heusy68]

Another fake model for the first class of the order:

Hello sir,

What is your opinion about my Michael the Brave 1st Class 2nd Type ? Fake or genuine ?

Size : 40 x 40 millimeters.Thickness : 2 millimeters.Weight : 23,5 grammes.

You can see on pictures of reverse that the articulation of the pin is different,much elaborated.

Emmanuel