Naval trapezoid ribbon bar of Marine-Oberstabszahlmeister Wilhelm Landwehr

[webr55]

This is my first trapezoid ribbon bar. This style was worn on pre-WW1 'monkey jackets'.

However, I thought this one would be easy to ID:

1) RAO4

2) KO4

3) DSWA medal

4) China medal

5) Centenary

6) Russian St. Stanislaus

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[webr55]

The back:

This should be an officer in between circa 1891 and 1897, with no XXV in 1914. I looked through Navy ranklists 1904 and 1908-1914 but could not really spot him. I have four vague, not very good candidates, though:

1) Siegfried Westerkamp, RAO4mKr (Crown maybe not worn), KO4 as KorvKap per 1914. Seems to have been in China on "Bussard", though the DOA shows no China medal. BUT: No proof of St. Stanislaus. During WW1 chief of staff of the U-Boat flottilla. 1920 aD as Kap zS.

2) Metzing, RAO4, RSt2 (might have been worn as Kleindekoration) as KorvKap per 1913. Lt zS 25.10.97. No proof of KO4. In 1900 on torpedo boats D1 and D8. He was killed as captain of the first German naval airship in 1913, so not in further RLs.

3) Dr. Theodor Sohler, born 9.5.1874 in Mannheim. RAO4, RSt3X as Oberstabsarzt per 1914. DOA shows Centenary and RSt3X. No proof of KO4, but went aD 13.10.1914. Dr. med. in Berlin 23.7.1897. Can't find him in 1900 RL, strange. Char MarGeneralOA 27.4.21.

4) General question: Could this have been a Deckoffizier, who wore this bar together with his old-style LS brooch before 1913? Is this possible at all? If so, there is only one candidate: Obermaschinist Biederstedt, per 1914: AllgEhrenzeichen, Crown Order MEDAL, XV and Russian St. Stanislaus MEDAL.

Any ideas about this case? Maybe anything on China assignment of #2 and #3?

Thanks

Chris

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[Paul C]

That is a hard call. Did you also look through engineer's? To properly research a china medal you need the 1900 Navy RL. That way you could also he if the person ship was involved in China.

[webr55]

That is a hard call. Did you also look through engineer's? To properly research a china medal you need the 1900 Navy RL. That way you could also he if the person ship was involved in China.

The problem with engineers is that they invariably have LS decorations. And with an RAO4, he cannot have had only an NCO LS old-style brooch. All engineers with the RAO already have the XXV.

I found Westerkamp and Metzing in the 1900 RL. Solger's not in there however, I wonder what he did in 1900.

BTW, IF this was a Crown Order Medal, I suppose it would come BEFORE the Allg. Ehrenzeichen?

Edited August 4, 2007 by webr55

[Guest Rick Research]

I cannot find anyone in 1914 or 1907 who fits, either.

This is simply one of those wretched ribbon bars which only the MEDAL bar could confirm what the awards actually are:

Crown 3rd, or Crown 4th? Red Eagle with bow/crown or plain?

I agree-- cannot be any technical official with no long service on there. I do not think Deck Officers wore this form of dress.

Whenever I see BOTH Southwest Africa AND China--and NO "X" award--generally both are stay at home steels. Which would be highly unlikely for a combatant arms officer.

There are a number of unprovable suspects this MIGHT have belonged to if they got KO3s after the May 1914 Navy Rank List came out. No help at all for us.

Or-- thsi belonged to some sort of BEAMTER, 90% of whom are NOT shown in the Navy Rank List!

??? Some sort of Reichsmarineamt official-- and hence no long service award (until AFTER the war)?

[webr55]

I agree with two steel versions. But who would those unprovable suspects be, without an XXV? Or what if Westerkamp got the RSt between May and August 1914?

A Reichsmarineamt official who might even have had 25 years by 1914 - that could explain the missing LS. But did those get the Centenary? Or would he have to serve around 1897 and then go into a Beamten career?

Edited August 4, 2007 by webr55

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, Beamten got the 1897 also.

But we're still stuck.

NO Beamten got XXVs until after the war. They (and career NCOs) received permission to get those just as awards were suspended for the entire war.

It's definitely a 1907-1914 bar. With so many limitations on suspects, the wearer should leap right out at us!

[webr55]

I hope it was not a salesman's sample, some of which turned up recently!

[Guest Rick Research]

Oh?

[webr55]

I was thinking of something along these lines:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=19280

[webr55]

BTW, if a Reichsmarineamt official, what level would he have to be? Would a Rechnungsrat be enough for an RAO4/KO4 combination?

[Guest Rick Research]

Well that WOULD explain why we can't identify some of them!

I have NO idea-- because they are completely, totally "invisible."

Glenn found a 1917 Beamten Rank List which Daniel has been typing out for centuries and maybe that might help as to what a "typical" senior naval Official got.

So many projects, so little TIME.

[Daniel Krause]

yes, but even for this 1917 list, there are NO colonial medals mentioned. Unless a cross-check in the Orders Almanach brings a success..

Anyway, I do not think that there are that many of salesman examples. This small "navy style" trapezoids have more been a fashion than official. Big Trapezoids and the new M1915 were the official ones.

Best regards

Daniel

[webr55]

The Beamtenrangliste was a good idea, and even better the 1914 one, showing the foreign prewar awards!

There is one good candidate in there, and one only:

Wilhelm Landwehr, born 24.10.1861 in Wilhelmshaven. Entered Navy 10.1880. Zahlmeister 15.4.1890, Oberzahlmeister 11.6.1894, Stabszahlmeister 11.4.1905. In 1914, he is attached to the Inspektion der Marine-Infanterie and holds an RAO4, KO4, RussSt3. No LS award! His DOA entry confirms the Centenary and the China Medal. The only thing that is not confirmed is the DSWA, but maybe it was awarded after the DOA came out. A.D. as char. Marine-Oberstabszahlmeister 30.6.1921 and alive in 1930. He was living in Kiel in 1908 and 1914.

The RL 1918 adds a non-com EK and an OFA2.

Edited August 6, 2007 by webr55

[webr55]

Rick: Can you find him in the MOH directories? Or are officials not in there?

[Guest Rick Research]

AHA!!!

There is the EXCEPTION to every rule-- didn't even LOOK there because

"all Paymasters with RAO4/KO4 had long service awards..."

Landwehr zipped through without the enlisted brooch that would have been all he had until after the war!

I don't find him as a ship's paymaster in China, so that could be a steel.

He was Divisions-Zahlmeister of I. Bau Division until May 1916 then Inspektions-Zahlmeister of the Inpektion Bildungswesen der Marine to war's end. Retired 31 March 1921 with char. as Marine-Oberstabszahlmeister aD 30.6.21.

He was a member of the M.O.V., Member #4763, living in retirement at Holtenauer Stra?e 65 II in Ki4el in 1928, and at Tirpitzstra?e 77 in Kiel in 1937. He is not listed in the 1931, 1935, or 1939 editions. 1931 a lot dropped out because of the Great Depression, but I would have thought he had died not being in the 1935 except there he is in 1937.

I am not sure if the MOV member number helps, but perhaps contacting the current organization, the MOH eV might turn up an obituary on him.

FOUND, FOUND AT LAST!!!!!

[webr55]

AHA!!!

There is the EXCEPTION to every rule-- didn't even LOOK there because

"all Paymasters with RAO4/KO4 had long service awards..."

Exactly!

I skipped the Paymasters as well. Only when looking through the Beamten RL, I payed attention to the missing LS.

Thanks!

Chris