Pour le M?rite

[AlikN]

Here is my theory on crosshatching, I don't think it's a die,

... the PLM cores are made and going for the enameling process, after enamel was applied awards are going for polishing, to take off enamel excess, specially the front to make sure all the letters and symbols are visible,

enamel is much harder to polish than metal, so I think in the process of polishing off the enamel excess,

they unintentionally were polishing off high points on the eagles body's and the later on rechasing them with files or gravers, and some got over polished more than the others.

Edited September 10, 2007 by AlikN

[AlikN]

Look at this post'45 S&L, that I used to own, lower left eagle has no feathers left and there are traces of polishing, ...only S&L didn't fix those eagles bodes after the war.

[Biro]

Hi Marshall, can you please refresh my memory? Exactly how many PLM's were awarded 1914-1918?

Thanks!!

Hi mate..

Even from New Zealand, I can spot a loaded question...

There were of course around 700-odd awarded - as you know - and a billion fakes exist, some excellent quality... but not all the fakes (including the one Andreas linked to on ebay) have the tell-tale 'fingerprints' that identify them as 100% having either come from Wagners original dies, or cast from an original Wagner.

The two in this thread (Mikes and Weitzes) do have these 'fingerprints', and therefore - sloppy cross-hatching or not - they must be taken cosiderably more seriously than your garden variety reproduction masquerading as a 'wearers copy'. They are - after all - changing hands for between 2000 and 7000 dollars as 'postwar 20's/30's examples' from dealers we both know and ..... love.

I am often asked about them, and I don't have the answers - except that to date, the common factor appears to be the cross hatching combined with an abscence of the 938 marking.

It appears we all agree the cross-hatching was probably an aesthetic enhancement - and I personally like Alikn's theory - but what we must also all agree on is whether any or all of them are cast copies, and where these examples might fit in the general time-line.

These are as close as it gets to an Imperial version of the 'A' and 'B' type S&L knights cross.

Marshall

Edited September 10, 2007 by Biro

[Mike]

These are as close as it gets to an Imperial version of the 'A' and 'B' type S&L knights cross.

Marshall

Not that again ...anything but that . One RK A-B Adventure was enough for me

Have any un marked cast models been tested and shown up with a 935 Silver content ? Besides the die vs cast issue , I think Les has a good point about the lower grade Silver content being used post war ....it makes sense.

[Les]

Here is my theory on crosshatching, I don't think it's a die,

... the PLM cores are made and going for the enameling process, after enamel was applied awards are going for polishing, to take off enamel excess, specially the front to make sure all the letters and symbols are visible,

enamel is much harder to polish than metal, so I think in the process of polishing off the enamel excess,

they unintentionally were polishing off high points on the eagles body's and the later on rechasing them with files or gravers, and some got over polished more than the others.

"......enamel is much harder to polish than metal, so I think in the process of polishing off the enamel excess....."

The post WWII S&L made copies aren't enamelled used melted glass beads the way the wartime presentation pieces were. The S&L's are actually done using a paste compound similar to the cloisonnee process, and resembles a hardened paint more than a glass or "smelted silicate."

The "S&L's" appear to have been made with single application of "paste" per side. Old enamelling processes used during the WWI era are quite different from the way "enamelling" is done today. Often, the old method used more than one application of -true- enamelling applied in more than one layer.

Les

Edited September 10, 2007 by Les

[Stogieman]

Gee whiz Marshall, I have a hard enough time remembering everything to do with aviation badges and then only by cheating and making notes!!!! I can hardly consider brain space for any PLM points, issue numbers, issue types, die flaws, etc....

So, How many? legit question?!? please...

Thanks!

[Biro]

Gee whiz Marshall, I have a hard enough time remembering everything to do with aviation badges and then only by cheating and making notes!!!! I can hardly consider brain space for any PLM points, issue numbers, issue types, die flaws, etc....

So, How many? legit question?!? please...

Thanks!

Hi Rick

There were 687 awarded. By far the majority of that figure were silver gilt and awarded late in the war.

Marshall

[Stogieman]

OK, 687 awards, mostly late war in silver gilt.

Next question and pardon my lack of experience with this piece.

If I have followed the debate properly, there were only 3 actual manufacturers?

(Wagner, Godet & Rothe?)

The FR pieces were made by Wagner?

Thanks!!

[Mike]

With so few Awarded ...I really think PLM's have been overlooked when you consider the price . I have a feeling they'll double in price by 2019.

All those "Investor-Collectors" out there will be snatching them up ..

http://www.marx-brothers.org/whyaduck/soun...oanuts/boom.wav

[Mike]

OK, 687 awards, mostly late war in silver gilt.

Next question and pardon my lack of experience with this piece.

If I have followed the debate properly, there were only 3 actual manufacturers?

(Wagner, Godet & Rothe?)

The FR pieces were made by Wagner?

Thanks!!

From the sounds of it , Wagner supplied FR with unmarked Frames ...which FR completed and applied their MM.

[dond]

How did they do the enamel work on both sides? One side at a time?

[medalnet]

OK, 687 awards, mostly late war in silver gilt.

Next question and pardon my lack of experience with this piece.

If I have followed the debate properly, there were only 3 actual manufacturers?

(Wagner, Godet & Rothe?)

The FR pieces were made by Wagner?

Thanks!!

Officially licensed during WWI only Wagner, Friedlaender & Godet.

[Biro]

.....The FR pieces were made by Wagner?...

This is not proven - but I am totally convinced this is the case.

They share identical characteristics and flaws, so there can be no other explanation than that Wagner supplied either the finished product or certainly hefty chunks of their own product which Friedlander then maker marked and assembled.

Forget Rothe... (that'll win me friends.. )

Marshall

Edited September 14, 2007 by Biro

[Les]

This is not proven - but I am totally convinced this is the case.

They share identical characteristics and flaws, so there can be no other explanation than that Wagner supplied either the finished product or certainly hefty chunks of their own product which Friedlander then maker marked and assembled.

I'm solidly in agreement with Marshall on this idea. There appears to have been some arrangement (subcontracting between firms or even a parent-subsidiary firm relationship?) between Friedlaender and Wagner with regards to EK's. Friedlaender may have made EK's for Wagner, and there may have been a pro-qui-pro arrangement with regards to PlMs, and for all we know at this point, perhaps other medals.

Don...you asked how both sides were enamelled. Not hard at all. The two sides are done seperately with two or more firings per side. One side is done, then the other has a base enamel applied that smelts at a lower temperature than the first application. Not all glass is the same, and depending on additives, firing/melting temperatures can be far enough apart that multi-colored and multi-phase construction can not only be done, but also eye-catching in some instances (for example the banding seen in one Bavarian award).

Re: Mikes' comment about prices? Wait till the 100th of WWI and that's not far off. If Peter Jackson ever decides to do a WWI aviation movie in that time frame, hold on tight....

Les