EK 1939 Großmann or Deumer?

[Bill Garvy]

This just in from my good friend Micha, otherwise known hereabouts as "motorhead". I'd like to solicit the best thinking of you gentlemen regarding the maker of this cross. I say Gro?mann, Micha says Deumer. What say you?

By the way, the core is magnetic. . .

[Bill Garvy]

The reverse. . .

[George Stimson]

Man, that's a crisp core! (I say Grossmann.)

[joe campbell]

i couldn't say whether this is grossman, deumer,

or cabernat sauvignon, but it REALLY surprises me that

the core is magnetic.

sure looks like a brass core....

nice cross, bill.

joe

[Dave B]

I would also say Gro?mann

Btw Bill,just for curiousity what does it weigh?

Dave

[Motorhead]

OK-you all think it's a Grossmann-but why? Just because an identical EK with the magic"11" at the back? George,I know you are a "hardliner" in saying "Grossmann".

But please have a look at the frame and at the core....you see the tool markings at the inner,lower 9 o'clock corner? That is looking like two dots? Gentlemen,please have a look at your collections-especially for a "Deumer" core without a blob. You will find the same tool markings again. And of course the same core.....OK-Grossman could have used frames and cores from other producers.....sounds good? Not for me! "Grossmann had made 2nd class EKs-but the core is completely different.Well,let me resize a few pics....

Micha

[Motorhead]

OK,here we start with the twin brother of Bill's EK.If you look closely at the frame and the core you will see they match perfect!

Obverse

[Motorhead]

And the reverse

[Motorhead]

Just to complete the reverse,here's the catch and the marking

[Motorhead]

So fare so good.....so have a look at this one!

Looks like Bill's EK,doesn't it?

[Motorhead]

Close enough? Here's the reverse....

[Bill Garvy]

Micha, with all due respect, that's my point exactly. Maker mark "11" would be a Gro?mann, as is shown here on this 2nd Class example. . .

Is the above example also a Deumer?

My observations have shown little or no similarity between 1st & 2nd Class crosses for many manufacturers. For example, compare a "23", and there is no similarity between their 1st & 2nd Class crosses, in fact, the 1st Class resembles a Souval from the obverse. . .

[Motorhead]

Bill,I hope you don't mind that I use some scans of your EK....here are the 3 suspects!

[Motorhead]

I accept your point,my friend-but let me finish my rocky horror pictureshow.....

Here we go....

[Motorhead]

Same tool,same kind of frame......

[Motorhead]

one more

[Motorhead]

Another one

[Motorhead]

And the date-this comparisation was made between my "11" and an "L/11" without the blob! The core with the blob has got atotally different frame....(I'm not shure that all of the "Deumers" are following this rule)

[Bill Garvy]

Indeed, Micha, the similarities are indeed striking, which lends greater probability of the shared frames and cores hypothesis you alluded to earlier. You have certainly answered the question of when is a Deumer not a Gro?mann.

[Motorhead]

I hope it's so easy......OK,I belive it's a "Deumer",but what can we say for shure? The frame and the core are manufactured by "Deumer".And we know that there are KvK's made by "Deumer" with the same pin and hinge.But who has it put together? Who knows........ .Another funny thing-you all knows the EKs with these big"sunburst" screwback? I've seen one with the same core and frame like our "suspects" here....but this is another vstory!

Regards

Micha

[George Stimson]

"But please have a look at the frame and at the core....you see the tool markings at the inner,lower 9 o'clock corner? That is looking like two dots?"

Can you highlight this for me?

Also, don't forget that Godet and Zimmermann EKs are virtually identical. Identical crosses (much more identical than Grossmann/Deumers, which have different pins, in fact), but different makers.

[Motorhead]

George,are we shure that the Godet/Zimmermann EKs have really different makers?

They have got different markings,but they are nearly identical.So who made them? Or have both companies shared their tools? Please don't misunderstand me-of course they are two different companies,but I think one of them has bought the EKs from the other.

Do you agree with me that some of the parts(core and frame) from the "11" where made by "Deumer"? Look at post 15(the dots at the frame).Or do you say"close,but not matching"?Anyway-this is not a crusade for "Deumer".......

Micha

[George Stimson]

Oh, it's very possible that the "11s" were manufactured by Deumer. I guess it's a matter of terminology. Is the maker of the award the company who actually made it? Or is it the company who put their mark on it?

[George Stimson]

Maybe instead of "maker" the terms "provider" or "distributor" are more apt.

[Motorhead]

That's a good point-who put the "11" on the EK? When I remember right,there are war merrit crosses marked L/11 with the kind of pin we find at the "11" EKs.I would like to have one of these here to compare it with my "Deumer/Grossmann"

But the WMC have been never my point of interest-so I haven't a single one.....

It's absolutely possibly that "Deumer" sold a lot of parts to other companies-A friend of mine has got a '39 EK with one of these "sunburst screwbacks" in his collection-this EK shows the same "Deumer"core and the same frame as the "11" in mine and Bill's collection.So it doesn't matter what ever we will pull out of the dark,there will be always a"but".......I say "Deumer",but this isn't really new for you-but I also know that my(or all "Deumer" believers")theorie isn't waterproofed!

So at the moment I try to find one of these WMC's to have a closer look at the hinge/catch and the pin.......just to find matching toolmarks.Maybe it's wasted time,but this is one of the things that makes collecting iron crosses so interesting for me!

Micha