50p Anyone.....

[bigjarofwasps]

Hi Guys,

Found this thought it might be of interest...

http://www.royalmint.com/Corporate/British...gn/50pCoin.aspx

Gordon.

[leigh kitchen]

Was it the VC 50p that originally showed the design of a soldier viewed through a sniper scope & which did'nt find favour with those who matter as it was a bit too warry?

[bigjarofwasps]

Was it the VC 50p that originally showed the design of a soldier viewed through a sniper scope & which did'nt find favour with those who matter as it was a bit too warry?

Leigh, not heard that, but am curious any more info or pictures?

[leigh kitchen]

I think that it was shown in newspapers a while back, with the comment that Gordon Brown had disliked the design, so it was rejected.

Ah, just found a link to an article about it.......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4110392.stm

Brown calls for VC coin redesign

Private Beharry was awarded the VC after saving colleagues in Iraq

Gordon Brown has urged the Royal Mint to redesign a coin commemorating the Victoria Cross because it appears to show a soldier being shot in the back.

The 50p piece, marking 150 years of the prestigious medal, shows a soldier carrying a wounded colleague, apparently in the sights of enemy fire.

In a letter to the Royal Mint, the chancellor's aides say the image will "not seem appropriate" to many people.

About 30m coins are expected to be issued next year.

Courage

In the letter, published in The Sun, Mr Brown's aides say: "Before he (Mr Brown) writes to HM The Queen to request approval he would like further thought to be given to the design.

"He appreciates the designer's attempt to portray the courage and selflessness of the British soldier carrying a wounded comrade while under fire.

"But he feels that the particular image of a British soldier apparently about to be shot in the back will not seem appropriate to many people."

A Treasury spokeswoman said: "We are in ongoing discussions with the Royal Mint over the design of the commemorative coin and we expect an announcement in due course."

Highest award

The coin was the work of sculptor Clive Dunn, who also designed a ?5 coin marking the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar.

The Victoria Cross is the highest award in the British and Commonwealth military.

Private Johnson Beharry, 25, became the first living recipient of the VC since 1969.

He received the award in April after he twice saved the lives of colleagues under enemy fire in Iraq.

Edited October 30, 2007 by leigh kitchen

[Ed_Haynes]

Stupid question: Have these, especially the VC 50p, come out as real coins, or just as collectors' doo-dads?

[leigh kitchen]

They're real coins, in circulation, I've had a few of these beer tokens - there's also a Battle of Britain one, an Invasion of Normandy one.

Then of course, Public Libraries, National Health Service, 4 - Minute Mile. A cynic might say "any excuse".

Getting as bad as stamps.

Another link re the rejected VC design:

http://24carat.co.uk/2006fiftypencesriflesightframe.html

2006 Fifty Pence - 150th Anniversary of the First VC Victoria Cross in 1856

According to the Daily Telegraph:

Brown rejects design for VC coin as too gloomy By Neil Tweedie (Filed: 21/06/2005) Gordon Brown has vetoed a new design for the 50p piece celebrating the creation of the Victoria Cross because it shows a British soldier about to be shot in the back. The Chancellor, who must authorise currency designs before submitting them to the Queen for final approval, is said to prefer a more "positive" image for the back of the coin, which will be issued next year to mark the 150th year of the country's highest award for gallantry in the face of the enemy. He was unimpressed by the sculptor Clive Duncan's depiction of a soldier attempting to carry a wounded comrade to safety while caught in the cross-hairs of an enemy sniper's rifle. However, a friend of the artist yesterday described Mr Brown as championing a "histrionic rather than realistic" approach to the subject of bravery under fire. In a letter to the Royal Mint, a member of Mr Brown's private office requested that "further thought" be given to the design before it was referred to Buckingham Palace. The letter went on: "He [Mr Brown] appreciates the designer's attempt to portray the courage and selflessness of the British soldier carrying a wounded comrade while under fire, but he feels that the particular image of a British soldier apparently about to be shot in the back will not seem appropriate to many people, particularly to the families of fallen servicemen and women." The rejection has caused some embarrassment to the Mint, which is used to having its designs accepted by the Treasury. The offending "gloomy" version was chosen by the Royal Mint Advisory Committee, chaired by Sir Christopher Frayling, chairman of the Arts Council. Some 30 million new 50p pieces are due to be issued to celebrate the VC. Protocol dictates that Mr Duncan cannot comment on matters relating to his work for the Royal Mint. But a friend said that the sculptor, who has also designed a limited edition ?5 coin commemorating the 200th anniversary of Trafalgar, was very irritated by the Chancellor's intervention. The friend said: "He [Mr Duncan] was anxious to portray the reality of behaving bravely under fire. "The most frightening aspect of combat is often the unseen enemy, the concealed sniper who strikes without warning against those who are exposed and vulnerable. In battle, people feel vulnerable and afraid. Those who manage to master those feelings are very brave. "Clive did not want to take the histrionic route - the Victorian, banner-waving approach. We allow our children to play all manner of violent video games - violence with cherries on top. The design for the coin was meant to do justice to the cold reality of combat." The Royal Mint maintained a discreet silence yesterday, stating: "The Royal Mint does not comment on new designs for coins until they have received the formal approval of the Queen." But a Treasury spokesman said: "The process is now for the Mint to come back with some suggested alternative design, and Treasury officials are in touch with them about that." The Victoria Cross was instituted by Royal Warrant on June 29 1856, and is said to have been the idea of Albert, the Prince Consort. It ranks with the George Cross as the nation's ultimate recognition of courage. Bearing the inscription "For Valour", the medal is cast from the metal of Russian guns captured during the Crimean War. In April, Private Johnson Beharry, 25, of the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment, became the first person to be awarded the VC since the Falklands War of 1982. The award recognised his "outstanding gallantry" while in action near Al Amarah in southern Iraq in 2004.

From the BBC:

Brown calls for VC coin redesign Private Johnson Beharry Private Beharry was awarded the VC after saving colleagues in Iraq Gordon Brown has urged the Royal Mint to redesign a coin commemorating the Victoria Cross because it appears to show a soldier being shot in the back. The 50p piece, marking 150 years of the prestigious medal, shows a soldier carrying a wounded colleague, apparently in the sights of enemy fire. In a letter to the Royal Mint, the chancellor's aides say the image will "not seem appropriate" to many people. About 30m coins are expected to be issued next year. Courage In the letter, published in The Sun, Mr Brown's aides say: "Before he (Mr Brown) writes to HM The Queen to request approval he would like further thought to be given to the design. "He appreciates the designer's attempt to portray the courage and selflessness of the British soldier carrying a wounded comrade while under fire. "But he feels that the particular image of a British soldier apparently about to be shot in the back will not seem appropriate to many people." A Treasury spokeswoman said: "We are in ongoing discussions with the Royal Mint over the design of the commemorative coin and we expect an announcement in due course." Highest award The coin was the work of sculptor Clive Dunn, who also designed a ?5 coin marking the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar. The Victoria Cross is the highest award in the British and Commonwealth military. Private Johnson Beharry, 25, became the first living recipient of the VC since 1969. He received the award in April after he twice saved the lives of colleagues under enemy fire in Iraq.

Edited October 30, 2007 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

Oh, & there was anniversary of joining the EEC, anniversary of the single market, anniversary of the Suffragettes, & this year - the Boy Scouts.

Another bit from the above linked article - it would'nt fit on the last post:

Times Online:-

Reality check AS CHANCELLOR of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, is (ex-officio) Master of the Royal Mint, but he has not, I gather, made himself popular with the Deputy Master, who does all the work, or with the dedicated ranks of Britain?s numismatists. His offence? Turning down a design submitted to him for a new 50p coin planned for next year to commemorate the 150th anniversary of the Victoria Cross. The winning entry, by sculptor Clive Duncan, depicted a British soldier carrying a wounded comrade to safety with both of them being framed in the hairline sights of an enemy sniper. The Chancellor apparently wanted something more robust, nearer to the exploits of John Wayne or Alan Ladd in the Hollywood movies. I understand his feelings ? but, alas, that is not what real war is actually like.

Edited October 30, 2007 by leigh kitchen

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks, Leigh. I guess - I know - I haven't been there recently enough. Had hoped for OMRS this year, but .... Your 'bad as stamps' comment is, however, very well taken!

[Hugh]

I thought I had read somewhere (probably on this forum?) that they had discontinued making the VC from the captured Russian guns. True or not?

[Craig]

No they are still usuing the Chinese Cannon captured from the Russians. Apparently there is enough metal for 88 more medals.

[Hugh]

No they are still usuing the Chinese Cannon captured from the Russians. Apparently there is enough metal for 88 more medals.

Thanks for the update.

[Dave B]

No they are still usuing the Chinese Cannon captured from the Russians. Apparently there is enough metal for 88 more medals.

Which I believe are stored just down the road from me at C.O.D Donnington.

I have a couple of the 50ps with the soldier carrying a wounded comrade but I haven't found one with the VCs on yet *cough*

[bigjarofwasps]

Found this thought it might be of interest.....

Slighty off topic, but its interesting none the less.....

Author explodes myth of the gunmetal VC

By Catriona Davies

The belief that every Victoria Cross, Britain's highest military honour, is made from cannon captured during the Crimean War is nothing more than a myth, says a book marking the 150th anniversary of the medal.

John Glanfield: ?There was an accepted legend and

no one had researched whether it was true?

John Glanfield, a historian and author of Bravest of the Brave, to be published next month, claims to have exposed the truth about the metal used to make the awards.

It has long been believed that all 1,351 Victoria Crosses awarded have been made of bronze taken from two Russian cannon captured at the siege of Sebastopol and kept in the Royal Arsenal at Woolwich.

The Victoria Cross was instituted on Jan 29, 1856, as the supreme gallantry award and the first to recognise servicemen's brave acts regardless of rank.

The priceless lump of metal, of which there remains enough for a further 85 crosses, is kept in a vault at the Royal Logistic Corps in Donnington, Shropshire. It can be removed only under guard.

By studying historical documents and scientific analysis, Glanfield claims that the Woolwich cannon were not used until 1914, 58 years after the first Victoria Crosses had been produced.

He also says that the precious ingot disappeared during the Second World War, so a different metal was used for five crosses awarded between 1942 and 1945.

"I was astonished," he said. "There was an accepted legend and no one had researched whether it was true. When something has been the belief for 150 years it becomes accepted as the truth."

In the book, he says: "No aspect of the history of the Victoria Cross has been so hotly debated or disputed as the origin of the metal from which it is made.

"The truth has become fogged by time, myth and misinformation. Part of the myth is that every cross has been cast from the two [Woolwich] cannon."

advertisement

The cannon in Woolwich are Chinese-made, although they have often previously been cited as Russian, and Glanfield says that their origin is an "impenetrable mystery".

He said there was no evidence that they had been captured at Sebastopol, the last big battle of the Crimean War, as was often stated. "The Chinese pieces were not the only, or even the first, to contribute VC metal," he said. "An earlier gun provided bronze from the start.

"When the metal ran out in December 1914, the Chinese cannon took over. The football-size cascabels [knobs] were sawn off at the neck and melted down for VC production, starting not in 1856 but nearly 60 years and some 560 crosses later."

Glanfield cites unpublished X-ray analysis of crosses, carried out at the Royal Armouries and the Australian War Memorial in Canberra, showing that those awarded before 1914 were of a different metal from those afterwards. It is only those since 1914 that match the Woolwich cannon.

Furthermore, an estimated 224lb of metal has been taken from the Woolwich cannon. Glanfield said that to make 12 crosses with a combined weight of 10oz or 11oz required 47oz of gunmetal because of the wastage in the process. Therefore the 224lb would have been enough to make the 810 crosses issued since 1914, but not those previously.

Of the disappearance of the ingot in 1942, he said: "The wartime transfer of the VC block from Woolwich Arsenal with tens of thousands of dispersed depots may have rendered it impossible to trace." He said the War Office covered up the crisis at the time.

Glanfield, who began writing after he retired as a director of the Earl's Court and Olympia exhibition centres, almost turned down the opportunity to write the book because he thought there was nothing new to learn about the Victoria Cross.

However, he changed his mind because he had been inspired by VC holders he had met in his earlier career.

He said: "I found all of them quiet, self-effacing and considered their acts of gallantry to be just a job. These are supermen and I relished the prospect of writing about them. Researching the book was a humbling and awesome experience."

Glanfield decided to research the origins of the crosses themselves, a project that took eight months, because previous histories had concentrated on the recipients and their deeds.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...12/28/nvc28.xml

[Guest Rick Research]

Why are these coins 7-sided? They remind me of the bus tokens of me yout', which were made weird shaped so slugs or lower value coins couldn't be slipped in to cheat on the fares as they were dropped down a tube at the top of the entrance steps. (Drivers did NOT make change.)

Or was that another We Are The Committee (Sniff) Whose Designs Are Not (Sniff) To Be Challenged (Sniff) decision, too? Nice work, if you can get it. Never applied anyplace I ever was, sigh.

[Dave B]

Thanks for that BJoW, very interesting mate!

Rick, I have no idea why the 50p is 7 sided??...I think we have had 7 sided coins going back years, best to ask someone dead old like Gordon W

Btw, anyone got a spare VC 50p?(not the one with the soldiers)

[Gordon Williamson]

Rick, I have no idea why the 50p is 7 sided??...I think we have had 7 sided coins going back years, best to ask someone dead old like Gordon W

I had heard it is something to do with making the coins easily identifiable by touch, to assist blind people. Too many coins of different denomination ( 1p, 2p, 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p, ?1, ?2 all in the basic round shape and some -i.e. the 2p and 10p and the 1p and 5p not all that much different in size) makes things difficult for blind folk.

Of course if we were catering for skinheads like DaveB, we have to make all our coins egg-shaped.

Dave, I have a spare VC 50p, but you're not getting it you cheeky git.

[Guest Rick Research]

"I had heard it is something to do with making the coins easily identifiable by touch, to assist blind people."

Is it H.M. Govt's Official POLICY to encourage blind people to drink in public?

And if it IS, how are they supposed to know if they are ACTUALLY getting The Good Stuff or the Blitish equivalent of Miller Lite when they ORDER something from Evile Change-Swapping Publicans, huh, huh, huh?

[geoff]

I had heard it is something to do with making the coins easily identifiable by touch, to assist blind people. Too many coins of different denomination ( 1p, 2p, 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p, ?1, ?2 all in the basic round shape and some -i.e. the 2p and 10p and the 1p and 5p not all that much different in size) makes things difficult for blind folk.

Of course if we were catering for skinheads like DaveB, we have to make all our coins egg-shaped.

Dave, I have a spare VC 50p, but you're not getting it you cheeky git.

Hi Gordon, thought you might be interested

The Seven-sided Coins

Both the 20p and 50p coins are seven-sided to aid identification The sides are not straight, but curved, with the centre of curvature being the opposite apex. This means that when used in slot machines they always appear to have exactly the same diameter regardless of the orientation of the coin when it is put in.

The fifty pence coin originally weighed 13.5 grams and had a diameter of 30 mm.

It was introduced in 1969 to replace the ten shilling note as part of the run up towards decimalisation two years later. The ten shilling note ceased to be legal tender from 22nd November 1970.

In 1997 a new smaller version of the 50p was introduced weighing 8.00 grams and with a diameter of 27.30 mm.

There are seventeen types of the 50 pence coin.

After the introduction of the pound coin in 1983 demand for the coin dropped significantly, and although well used, fewer were tied up in slot machines, so the banks had a large surplus in stock. This is why so few have been released into circulation since 1985.

Best regards

Geoff