Medal Bar to a Hanovarian

[Wild Card]

Hi Yankee,

Thank you for the compliment on the Ernst August bar. With regard to the hollow crowns, I have heard several theories; but can not offer anything definitive. Don?t forget, Ernst August was not born until 1887; twenty-one years after the end of the kingdom, so... Certainly the hollow variety is much rarer; but, at the same time believe that the crowns on the first class knight badges are always hollow.

Per your request, here is the full bar.

[Wild Card]

While we?re at it, and since I brought it home along with the bar shown above, I thought that you might like to see his father?s bar. Hollow crowns again, but notice the incorrect (W?rttemberg long service) ribbon.

Thank you again, and best wishes,

Wild Card

[webr55]

Wow Wild Card, did I get that right: You own the medal bars of both the last Duke of Brunswick and his father?

Could you post more scans? What are the last medal and the award on purple ribbon, and what is the bar on the Danish ribbon?

[Yankee]

Hi Yankee,

Thank you for the compliment on the Ernst August bar. With regard to the hollow crowns, I have heard several theories; but can not offer anything definitive. Don?t forget, Ernst August was not born until 1887; twenty-one years after the end of the kingdom, so... Certainly the hollow variety is much rarer; but, at the same time believe that the crowns on the first class knight badges are always hollow.

Per your request, here is the full bar.

Hi Wild Card

What an absolute pleasant surprise, thought to see a mirage. Really great you were able to have a father & son group united and not to be broken up which seems to be the norm these days. To think of it never have seen a gold knight with solid crowns, perhaps they were never awarded in exile. Many thanks for your kindness in showing these absolute Royal Historical gems

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year

Sincerely

Yankee

[Yankee]

Hi Wild Card

I just realized both Dukes were given the Danish Royal Wedding Decoration , interesting that the little Prince at the time had accompanynied his father suppose back then it was all about protocol. It seems they are both gold ( Royalty ) any idea how Christian lX was related to the Dukes?

Sincerely

Yankee

[Wild Card]

Well Gentlemen, having taken a Christmas break (lots of family things going on), I can see that I have some work to do and questions to answer here. So...

Yes, the two bars shown above are a father /son combination. Actually they had been broken up, or should I say, gone separate ways. I suspect that this separation took place in recent times; and I must admit that there was an element of luck involved in being at the right place, at the right time, to get (first) the father?s group. Sometime later, when the son?s group became available, the opportunity to reunify the two was the added incentive that made it happen.

According to Orden u. Ehrenzeichen des K?nigreiches Hannover by Andreas Thies and Wilhelm Hapke there were 213 first class knight awards to the Ernst August Order between the years 1866 and 1878. Since the kingdom ceased to exist in 1866 I think that it is safe to say that the majority of awards were made in exile and were not made by B?sch but most likely by Rothe und Neffe. Note that the Ernst August Order insignia on both bars are second class; which leads me to another matter.

Notice also that the Order of the Guelph insignia are those of the fourth class, which is usually incorrectly referred to as knight second class. I believe that awards of this order did not occur after 1866 and yet we see one on the son?s (who was born in 1888) bar. This insignia seems to have a special significance to the Hannoverian Royal Family going back to the first Ernst August because virtually any picture of them shows this cross; but why the fourth, and lowest, class? My guess, and I emphasize guess, is that it is because this grade was created by Ernst August in 1841; and, as such, was separate from the rest of the order which was so very British, which he despised, but I am going...

Let?s get to some pictures. First the bar on the Danish Christian IX silver medal.

[Wild Card]

Since we are focused on the son?s bar, let?s take a couple of close-ups of it. I would like to point out that since the medals on these bars are quite securely fastened, I cannot rearrange them for better viewing.

EKII, Brunswick Ernst August Cross 2nd class, Hannoverian Order of the Guelph w/swds 4th class, Hannoverian Ernst August Order knight 2nd class, Brunswick Order of Henry the Lion knight 2nd class, Hannover silver medal celebrating the eighty-first birthday of Queen Marie and Mecklenburg Griffin Order knight?s cross.

[Wild Card]

Second half. Starting with the previously mentioned Mecklenburg Griffin Order knight?s cross, we have a knight?s cross to the Order the Redeemer of Greece, Silver Cross of the Danish Dannebrog Order (Christian IX, 1863-1906), Danish Silver Medal of Christian IX with ?1818 - 8. April 1918?, Great Britain George V Coronation Medal and the Danish Honor Decoration of the Golden Anniversary of King Christian IX and Queen Louise.

[Wild Card]

Now to the father?s bar where we find a Hannoverian Order of the Guelph w/swds 4th class, Hannoverian Ernst August Order knight 2nd class, Hannover silver medal celebrating the eighty-first birthday of Queen Marie, Bavarian Prince regent Luitpold medal, Mecklenburg Griffin Order knight?s cross, Silver Cross of the Danish Dannebrog Order (Christian IX, 1863-1906), Great Britain George V Coronation Medal and the Danish Honor Decoration of the Golden Anniversary of King Christian IX and Queen Louise.

I hope that these pictures and the related information have answered your questions. If I can be of any further help, please let me know.

Best belated Christmas and New Years wishes,

Wild Card

[webr55]

I'm completely stunned. Here's the son with an earlier version of his medal bar, in the uniform of his 17th HusarenReg:

Edited December 28, 2007 by webr55

[Wild Card]

Hello webr55,

That is a truly spectacular picture! Thank you very much for sharing it. There is something in that picture that I find to be especially interesting. If I am not mistaken, the star that he is wearing is to the Hannoverian Order of St. George which is about as high and rare as you can get.

Because the one shown in the picture is a faceted star, I am inclined to think that it is an exile period piece by Rothe, The pre-exile stars were made by Hossauer, not, as widely believed, B?sch. Note - these stars are very heavily faked.

[Wild Card]

Hallmark.

[Wild Card]

While we are on the subject, I think that it is only proper to show you this prinzen star with the band of the British Order of the Garter which belonged to Ernst August (the father, above). Although the star does not have any maker?s marks, it?s case is marked to Rothe.

Thank you again for sharing the picture and best wishes,

Wild Card

[Yankee]

Well Gentlemen, having taken a Christmas break (lots of family things going on), I can see that I have some work to do and questions to answer here. So...

Yes, the two bars shown above are a father /son combination. Actually they had been broken up, or should I say, gone separate ways. I suspect that this separation took place in recent times; and I must admit that there was an element of luck involved in being at the right place, at the right time, to get (first) the father?s group. Sometime later, when the son?s group became available, the opportunity to reunify the two was the added incentive that made it happen.

According to Orden u. Ehrenzeichen des K?nigreiches Hannover by Andreas Thies and Wilhelm Hapke there were 213 first class knight awards to the Ernst August Order between the years 1866 and 1878. Since the kingdom ceased to exist in 1866 I think that it is safe to say that the majority of awards were made in exile and were not made by B?sch but most likely by Rothe und Neffe. Note that the Ernst August Order insignia on both bars are second class; which leads me to another matter.

Notice also that the Order of the Guelph insignia are those of the fourth class, which is usually incorrectly referred to as knight second class. I believe that awards of this order did not occur after 1866 and yet we see one on the son?s (who was born in 1888) bar. This insignia seems to have a special significance to the Hannoverian Royal Family going back to the first Ernst August because virtually any picture of them shows this cross; but why the fourth, and lowest, class? My guess, and I emphasize guess, is that it is because this grade was created by Ernst August in 1841; and, as such, was separate from the rest of the order which was so very British, which he despised, but I am going...

Let?s get to some pictures. First the bar on the Danish Christian IX silver medal.

Hi Wild Card

Many thanks for pointing out the fact that the Earnst August knight 1st class was awarded in exile. Since no solid crown examples have been recorded then it would be safe to say that they exist only in hollow crowns. I suspect it would be very very difficult to tell the Busch & Rothe apart since the jeweler quality at that time was excellent for both firms. The early Rothe badges were not marked as I assume the Busch made examples also were not. I think it was just Rothe making early material, not sure when the nephew joined the firm. When I get to my own computer I'll send out a scan of a knight 1 class.

What a fantastic St.george star w/Garter . Never seen one before only viewed the Black Eagle with Garter.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Wild Card]

Hello Yankee,

Thank you for the compliment on the St. George star; I was beginning to think that it had gone unnoticed. Actually Garter bands are known to also exist on both Red Eagle and Prussian Crown Order insignia; but, again, these are extremely rare and widely faked, especially the Crown Order.

With regard to identifying unmarked (commander?s and grand cross grade) B?sch pieces, there is an answer; but it is a bit involved and I would rather not post it as it would be very useful to certain creative parties who have not caught onto it yet.

Thank you again for the compliment and best wishes,

Wild Card

[webr55]

Hello Yankee,

Thank you for the compliment on the St. George star; I was beginning to think that it had gone unnoticed. Actually Garter bands are known to also exist on both Red Eagle and Prussian Crown Order insignia; but, again, these are extremely rare and widely faked, especially the Crown Order.

Ahhh, now I see it! What a spectacular piece!

[Yankee]

Hello Yankee,

Thank you for the compliment on the St. George star; I was beginning to think that it had gone unnoticed. Actually Garter bands are known to also exist on both Red Eagle and Prussian Crown Order insignia; but, again, these are extremely rare and widely faked, especially the Crown Order.

With regard to identifying unmarked (commander?s and grand cross grade) B?sch pieces, there is an answer; but it is a bit involved and I would rather not post it as it would be very useful to certain creative parties who have not caught onto it yet.

Thank you again for the compliment and best wishes,

Wild Card

Hi Wild Card

A St. George with a garter ribbon could never go unnoticed unless one too many beers . A friend of mine some time ago had shown me a Garter star w/Black Eagle band. Orginally thought this practice of adding foreign bands was only between the Prussian stars and English. Besides Hannover & Prussia did any other German Kingdoms have bands on their star? The copies of the Garter, Eagles & Crown bands are they being placed on orginal stars? If so then only an expert can tell I suppose by how the bands are fastened to the star itself. All the best.

Sincerely

Yankee

[webr55]

And here's a picture of Cumberland with family, medal bar in Austrian style:

[Yankee]

Hi Gentlemen

Always thought this was a German made piece from 1866 but now I'm not so sure. Any thoughts are welcomed if a Busch or Rothe make. Thanks to WEBR55 showing both pictures of the Duke wearing two different mounting styles. It seems Hannover favored the trifold ribbon perhaps due to her close ties with Austria.

[Yankee]

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen, I have to correct a previous statement. The faked bands on the Prussian Crown Orders, which I referred to in post #40, are bands to the RAO, not the Garter and they appear on both stars and crosses, especially crosses. Actually, I think that any German with a Garter would have something higher than any degree of the Crown Order.

With regard to the Duke and his Austrian uniforms, remember that Hannover ceased to exist in 1866, at which time, he was the Crown Prince; his father (King) George still being alive. The family went into exile, dividing their time between Vienna and Paris, spending most of their time in Vienna. As a matter of fact, if they traveled through Germany (by train, at that time), the window shades in their car were to be drawn. During this time he commonly wore Austrian uniforms; with what authority I do not know.

Yankee, your knight?s cross looks pretty good. I would guess, judging by the tri-fold ribbon, that it was awarded, but not necessarily produced, during the exile period.

Edited January 2, 2008 by Wild Card

[saschaw]

Actually, I think that any German with a Garter would have something higher than any degree of the Crown Order.

Methinks the same. As the Garter is one of the highest orders in old Europe I cannot imagine it was awarded to foreigners who had not their homelands highest order. I don't know which orders exist with Garter besides Prussian Black Eagle and the here shown Hannoverian as they are not seen too often. Exists a Baden Fidelitas house order with garter? I don't know if the Grand dukes held it ...

[Wild Card]

As near as I can tell, Friedrich I, Grossherzog von Baden was a member; but I cannot find Friedrich II - may have missed him. Interestingly there were some relatively minor German members such as Friedrich II, Landgraf von Hessen-Kassel and Bernhard II, Herzog von Sachsen-Meiningen-Hildburghausen. With regard to the Hannoverian awards, keep in mind that in spite of the acrimonious split and departure of Ernst August in 1837, they were very very closely related - but not close enough to provide sanctuary and relief in 1866 - a sad example to be repeated fifty plus years later with regard to their Russian cousins.

[Yankee]

Gentlemen, I have to correct a previous statement. The faked bands on the Prussian Crown Orders, which I referred to in post #40, are bands to the RAO, not the Garter and they appear on both stars and crosses, especially crosses. Actually, I think that any German with a Garter would have something higher than any degree of the Crown Order.

With regard to the Duke and his Austrian uniforms, remember that Hannover ceased to exist in 1866, at which time, he was the Crown Prince; his father (King) George still being alive. The family went into exile, dividing their time between Vienna and Paris, spending most of their time in Vienna. As a matter of fact, if they traveled through Germany (by train, at that time), the window shades in their car were to be drawn. During this time he commonly wore Austrian uniforms; with what authority I do not know.

Yankee, your knight?s cross looks pretty good. I would guess, judging by the tri-fold ribbon, that it was awarded, but not necessarily produced, during the exile period.

Hi Wild Card

Thanks for your encouraging comment on the knight. Not too long ago I noticed two different type of crowns between the arms, strange not to notice this before I acquired the Earnst August. Looked up a picture of another example and that too had the same crown design. The only significance I can come up with is that both crowns represent the Kingdoms of Great Britain & Hannover.

Interesting what you had to say about the Crown Prince traveling through Germany, Emperor Franz Joseph was not fond of his Hannover relations/guests & had to put a happy face on entertaining them..Sad how Hannover was absorbed even more sad for the Duke but most of the other countries that sided with Austria just received a slap on the wrist go figure.

Sincerely

Yankee