A plausible combination?

[dond]

Forget about the EK2 being there. Given the ribbons and the order of placement is this combo even plausible?

Thanks

[dond]

The reverse for Rick.

[Guest Rick Research]

Aside from the nitwit who stuck a 1939 EK2 on the Hungarian WW1 Commemorative Medal's ribbon-- sure.

What we've got here is the SECOND row from somebody who-- for whatever reason--decided to wear his awards spread out this way rather than squished into the normal single row. I expect the top row started with a 1914 EK2 and finished with a Hindenburg Cross X and had exactly the same number of awards on it. (EK2 1914, maybe an MEZ2 for China, maybe a 1939 civil KVK, another WW1 #4, a third WW1 #5, HCX?) It is actually in PERFECT post-Anschluss precedence. Looks to me like the bar of a former NCO or PO out into the civil service before 1914 who would have been called back for the Great War as a Feldwebelleutnant. 60 or so in 1940.

Weird, but that's why this is what's "left over," same as if it had been a ribbon bar double row.

[dond]

Thanks Rick.

[HeikoGrusdat]

if this is a combattant china medal (what it looks like to me...) then it is on the completely wrong place after the austrian....

[Guest Rick Research]

Not according to the POST--ANSCHLUSS regulations.

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hi Rick,

maybe my brain is a bit offline....but can you explain this for me...

Do you want to say after the Anschluss it was correct to wear a real prussian / Kaiserreich combattant award AFTER an austrian ww1 rememberance medal ( that you could get with sending some nice "I want it..." words to an office...) ???

I never knew that if it is so....

Heiko

Edited December 30, 2007 by HeikoGrusdat

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes. World War trumped colonial expeditions.

Don't forget "Gleichschaltung," making Austria no different than Bavaria, Saxony, Anhalt etc.

Somewhere out there is a 6 medal bar with an MEZ2 ending in a Hindenburg Cross, with no long services... that also makes no sense as only a HALF.

For post-Anschluss regulations, go to

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?autocom=galler...=si&img=862

and go down below the Steinhauer & L?ck page image to the "comments," where Reichs regulations are posted.

From 1940 to 1942, the 1939 Kriegsverdienstmedaille came between the Hindenburg Cross and the Austrian WW1 Commemorative Medal.

[saschaw]

I'm not convinced it has to be a second row. In my humble opinion it may be the bar of someone who didn't get bravery awards for neither China nor WW I and decided not to wear a 1934 Ehrenkreuz. Both sounds strange, though I prefer my version.

[Ulsterman]

It's so odd I think it's probably original because as Rick said above, it's got a post Anschluss precedence and the story makes sort of sense (retired navy guy-no front line service in WW1 almost makes one think mail boat or accident victim).

Lots of Austrians never applied for the HKx (vets only had about a year to apply for them and many did not) and one thing I have noticed is that most fakers have tells-much like con men everywhere (or bombers for that matter).

I was taught many years ago how to I.d. some hard forensic evidence from crime scenes. One pattern common to almost all humans is "SOP"-that is "Standard operating procedure. People who do things tend to do them in patterns-the same way, almost always. Thus in analyzing bomb fragments one always looked for a twisty tie to be wrapped a certain way, or a particular type of plastic to be used etc.. Here, many, if all the fakers, are unaware of the Austrians didn't apply for the Hkx issue and put an HKx on (it's cheap). however, on another forum there is clearly a significant amount of photographic evidence that a LARGE number of Austrians did not get the HKx-even those later recalled into the Wehrmacht!

[Guest Rick Research]

But it's NOT an Austrian's bar -----> PRUSSIAN/REICHS XV Years Service Cross!

That is also the GERMAN China Medal. While some Germans received the Austro-Hungarian "generic" 1873 War Medal for China (last OFFICIALLY granted for there, though Robert has shown us a photo of an Austrian with one who held the German Southwest Africa Medal 1904/06--must have been a unique "final" one!! ), I have never seen an Austrian with the German medal for China...

and an Austrian in China would have had said 1873 War Medal but NEVER a Prussian long service award.

Ergo, a German's second row.

[ccj]

But it's NOT an Austrian's bar -----> PRUSSIAN/REICHS XV Years Service Cross!

That is also the GERMAN China Medal. While some Germans received the Austro-Hungarian "generic" 1873 War Medal for China (last OFFICIALLY granted for there, though Robert has shown us a photo of an Austrian with one who held the German Southwest Africa Medal 1904/06--must have been a unique "final" one!! ), I have never seen an Austrian with the German medal for China...

and an Austrian in China would have had said 1873 War Medal but NEVER a Prussian long service award.

Ergo, a German's second row.

Rick, your a darn good medal bar detective.

[HeikoGrusdat]

I have never seen an Austrian with the German medal for China...

Rick,

I have one..... will send pics on friday when I get back to my files....

Heiko

[saschaw]

Of course it's a German's bar. The Austrian medal is by the way not to common in Austrian groups. Many groups without it in Austria ...

But I'm still not 100% convinced it's a second row. Second rows are thaaat rare, I've hardly ever seen some but on Admirals, then each with about eight decorations.

I have one..... will send pics on friday when I get back to my files....

Dr. G?rtner or someone else's?

[HeikoGrusdat]

...... yes Dr.G?rtner

and please remember these monster double row bars that were stolen from me over a year ago... during ww1 and the 20s/30s only a Leutnant / Leutnant d.R.

[Ulsterman]

How big is too big?

Yeah I know it's a German vets' bar, but I assumed he'd gone to Austria by the Ww1 commem. placement. I guess I should have mentioned that I also doubted it being a second row bar. I have rarely seen a double row of medal bars in photos-except for royalty and higher officers. This guy was an NCO, so how many more could he have had to warrant another top row: (EK2/Hamburg/ another state/Silesia/HKx?

For the size I'd have reckoned he'd have shoved them all on one bar, as that one does see in photos. Note that most bars seem to max out at 10/12 medals-which is what this guy would have had-at most.

Perhaps someone who had an accident in 1913 and went south?

Still, if there are photos out there of double row be medaled old NCOs I'd love to see them.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Guest Rick Research]

Definitely freaky. If anyone can find the like photographed, it'll be Robert or you. Or Daniel if he's not matching baby christening medal bars.

Arthur Achleitner wrote "mountain novels" and he did pretty darn good.

[HeikoGrusdat]

for Rick........

german china medal for an austrian:

Dr.Erns G?rtner

KUK doctor of medicine, commander of mobile aid station N?1

He also had french legion of honour, prussian red cross medal 3.class and other awards...

[Guest Rick Research]

What's the biography on him? No AUSTRIAN "1873" for China????

[HeikoGrusdat]

I don`t know much about him.....

a ebay purchase...the seller sold all his items seperatly, about 30 auctions at all.... medals, documents, ribbon bars, photo album, ID box ..... he was born 1879 in B?hmen and still active in ww1