Republic of Ireland Irish 1916-20

[Ulsterman]

what sort of person got an officially named medal but wasn't KIA?

what website?

[Irish1916]

what sort of person got an officially named medal but wasn't KIA?

what website?

Anyone who had died before the medals were issued in the early 1940's, had a named & numbered medal issued to his/her family/next of kin, irrespective of whether he was killed in action or simply died at any date before the issue.

My web site on the subject of 1916 collectables is www.TheEasterRising.Eu

Visit My Website

[Ulsterman]

Exceptional site! bravo.

The original UVF badge is quite good. I have only seen fewer than 20 original pieces in my life in private hands. Copies were manufactured widely starting with Gusty Spence and his lot right through to today. The real (modern) UVF however used them as well as some hand made bullion patches on arm bands. I also saw larger blackened beret badges and they even used U.S. and British rank insignia for officers at one point.

Your Masonic/Orange Lodge medals are superb. I never knew they'd had the gall to issue a Siege of Drumcree medal, but Portadown has always been over the top. My Father -in-Law described them as being "thugly" even before the millennium ugliness.

I have an extensive Irish collection, but it's all modern. Still, there's some good stories attached to most of the pieces.

Should I come across any of the IRB stuff over here, I'll send it to you in the spirit of good forumly comradship. I come across Fenian stuff about once a year or so, but as you can probably guess by my moniker, it's not my forte'..

Edited January 14, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Ceallach]

Anyone who had died before the medals were issued in the early 1940's, had a named & numbered medal issued to his/her family/next of kin, irrespective of whether he was killed in action or simply died at any date before the issue.

My web site on the subject of 1916 collectables is www.TheEasterRising.Eu

Visit My Website

In addition there are examples of named & numbered medals being issued to those who were deceased prior to an application being made. For example a posthumous award was made to Jack Kavanagh (Wexford IV) who died in the 60's and for whom an application was made in the 70's by a family member.

An Ceallach

[Irish1916]

Should I come across any of the IRB stuff over here, I'll send it to you in the spirit of good forumly comradship. ..... but as you can probably guess by my moniker, it's not my forte'..

Thank you for your offer & comments.

As I have had some negative feedback to my web presentation of collectables from the Irish 1916 period now starting to include items from the both sides of the conflict, I feel I have to say it is a great commendation to the creators of, and contributors to, the GMIC that these threads can include such Gentlemanly exchanges of opinions on these subjects, it's a pleasure to be involved.

[deptfordboy]

What a shocking thread - this group is indeed of great historical importance and yet it gets cast to the 4 winds like this. However, this seller is only repeating practices common in contents auctions going way back. I spoke with the auctioneer of a local auction house who recently split up a (modest) family group which had been kept together over 150 years and he was quite clear about the fact that this way he'd make most money for his client and himself, with yer man on Ebay the tactics are the same, all that's changed is the medium.

Unfortunately, I feel the only sensible course of action is to steer well clear of all his ebay auctions, should one even have the very deep pockets required to reunite some or all of the items. After all, bidding to save them as a group is what he's counting on.

Cheers

Gilbert

[molders]

I've been following the "results as they come in" for the remainder of Tynans items and in my opinion some of the items in the group made, (in relative terms) surprisingly low prices. ?1020 for a Comrac doesn't raise any eyebrows at this stage. Anybody else any thoughts on the prices achieved?

[Ceallach]

I've been following the "results as they come in" for the remainder of Tynans items and in my opinion some of the items in the group made, (in relative terms) surprisingly low prices. ?1020 for a Comrac doesn't raise any eyebrows at this stage. Anybody else any thoughts on the prices achieved?

So it would seem 22,800 stg or so paid to Whytes and 10,900 stg recouped on Ebay, plus whatever was realised privately for the 1966 medal and armband, but unlikely to exceed his initial outlay. Quite the zero sum game resulting in the scattering of a very important collection.

Cannot articulate my disgust without swearing so I will stop here.

An Ceallach

Edited January 14, 2008 by Ceallach

[saoirse]

Thank you for your offer & comments.

As I have had some negative feedback to my web presentation of collectables from the Irish 1916 period now starting to include items from the both sides of the conflict, I feel I have to say it is a great commendation to the creators of, and contributors to, the GMIC that these threads can include such Gentlemanly exchanges of opinions on these subjects, it's a pleasure to be involved.

Gentleman.

New member enjoying your healthy debate.Just wondering can anybody telll me how many 1916 minatures are or were in extincances?

Also i just read in the Irish times Adams have just advertised for items in their April Independance auction.

Saoirse.

[irishmedals]

Just wondering can anybody telll me how many 1916 minatures are or were in extincances?

Saoirse.

Probably impossible to know how many 1916 miniatures were made as they were privately ordered and purchased by the recipient. I've seen them with and without suspender bars but no idea if they were made like this or the recipient took off the suspender bar so they could court mount them on uniforms. I'll try to scan a miniature with bar on my next post and i know one collector who contributes to this forum who has the miniatures court mounted and he also might scan a photo?

[saoirse]

Probably impossible to know how many 1916 miniatures were made as they were privately ordered and purchased by the recipient. I've seen them with and without suspender bars but no idea if they were made like this or the recipient took off the suspender bar so they could court mount them on uniforms. I'll try to scan a miniature with bar on my next post and i know one collector who contributes to this forum who has the miniatures court mounted and he also might scan a photo?

Ok thanks. I have a minature in my collection so not being rude I do know what they look like.I would really like to have an idea how many are out there or were out there anybody any idea?

Saoirse.

[irishmedals]

Probably almost impossible to determine how many there are as most are in private collections. Unless the manufactorors kept details of how many were made and who bought them we will probably never know. The manufactorors 'Quinn' are no longer trading so unless someone else has the details it will be impossible to know numbers made.

[Irish1916]

...... who has the miniatures court mounted and he also might scan a photo?

Here are poor scans from my web , if anyone wants I will make beter scans

[Staff Sgt Jock MacSplock]

This doesn't quite ring true.

Speaking entirely hypothetically, it strikes me that if it's worth faking ?100 WWII medals then it's worth turning your hand to medals that fetch ?6K. All you'd need after turning one out is an opportunity to introduce it into the market ......

[irishmedals]

This doesn't quite ring true.

Speaking entirely hypothetically, it strikes me that if it's worth faking WWII medals then it's worth turning your hand to medals that fetch ?6K. All you'd need after turning one out is an opportunity to introduce it into the market ......

Most collectors of Irish medals or that period know the difference between fakes and originals. There are various fakes on the market, some of the first originated in Australia in the late 1990s but they haven't been around for several years. I think most are now made in Ireland but aren't that good.

Anyone contemplating spending ₤500 never mind ?6000 on a medal would certainly look for solid provenance.

The 1916 that sold for ₤6000 on ebay (as part of the Tynan group) is certainly not worth anywhere near that amount as it has now no provenance as it has been split from the paperwork that gave it the provenance. I don't think many collectors would now be interested in it simplying because of this.

Anyone elses thoughts???

[Ceallach]

what sort of person got an officially named medal but wasn't KIA?

The 1916 Medal was also awarded to holders of a military service pension under either of the Military Service Pension Acts of 1924, 1934 and 1949 where their service for Easter Week, 1916, was certified for pension purposes. Consequently, other than those KIA Easter Week, the remaining recipients of the posthumously awarded 1916 Medal are represented by - (1) military service pensioners as outlined above who passed away before the creation of the 1916 Medal (ie January 24, 1941) and (2) deceased veterans who, had they lived, would have qualified for a military service pension as outlined above. Such applications for the Medal were made by next-of-kin subsequent to the death of the veterans. I recently posted on Jack Kavanagh, an example of the latter.

Hopefully this helps.

An Ceallach

[Irish1916]

What are you thoughts, Gentlemen on the Ribbon of this 1916 medal for sale on ebay at the moment

Item number: 300193808026,

Paul

[Paul L Murphy]

Looks like a replacement ribbon to me. It seems to have a larger weave than the original ribbon, also the level of wear (or lack thereof) is different from the two accompanying medals.

[irishmedals]

Almost certainly the ribbon is a replacement. As rightly pointed out by Paul Murphy the weave is larger and definately no wear or signs of age. The ribbon looks very bright and new to me. The other photo on ebay that shows the front of the medals makes the ribbon look slightly too wide and it is squashed through the suspender pin.

It was that seller who split the Tynan collection. Didn't he also try to sell a "very questionable" 1916 medal last year on ebay that he had to take off ebay as so many people contacted him about it being fake? Is the 1916 now on ebay the same medal as last year but with a different ribbon????

Edited January 30, 2008 by irishmedals

[Irish1916]

Here is my question sent to the seller through ebay

Dear ******

I would be fairly sure that the ribbon on the 1916 medal is a modern replacement and not original and thus not the"100% real article" as you state in the description. The ribbon is the hardest part of the 1916 medal to fake and thus an integral part of the providence of a medal. I'm sure you will be happy to add my comment to your item description. Paul

And his reply

Hi Paul, I have spoken with the seller who assures me that this is the ribbon that was with the medal when he purchased them. Equally we are both of the opinion that it is unlikely that it would have been changed prior to that. Also between us we have 3 other Rising medals to compare against and we are happy as to the authenticity of this one. As stated in my listing this set of medals come with a full money back guarantee if they are not as described. Thanks as always for your advice.

Best Regards

I hope the eventual winner is made aware of my (our?) thoughts so he can avail of the option of the "full money back guarantee if they are not as described" should he have any doubts.

[Brendan]

Gentlemen (and hopefully ladies),

From the look of the ribbon on the 1916 medal it looks like it could be a replacement medal issued in the 1980s although the ribs on the ribbon look a little large and with the ribbon appearing slightly too large for the pin bar it has some of the hallmarks of the Australian copy.

After the splitting of the Tynan group I think it interesting that the seller describes himself as a collector.

This is not the "very questionable" 1916 medal that appeared on Ebay about a year ago as the seller of the "very questionable" medal was me (every-thing-irish on Ebay). Unfortunately I was not forced to remove it from Ebay but done so because as a collector, although since the advent of Ebay I have become more of a dealer, I would not allow any medal that questions had been raised about to pollute the pool of genuine items.

I say unfortunately I was not forced to cancel the auction for the "very questionable" medal because if an item is questionable there is nothing you can do about it if the seller decides to carry the auction on to its conclusion. I have seen one seller in particular sell several Sam Brown belts as Irish Army although if you look as his feedback as a buyer you can see the belts were purchased from the UK, sometimes the original seller would give the name of the British Army regiment the belt came from, yet they were resold on Ebay as Irish Army.

As you can see from the auction Paul's question to the seller has not been added to the description and I would suspect it is very unlikely it will be. Maybe it is time for a web-site giving exact details of the genuine medal, I know it will also be read by the forger but at least the collector will know what to look for. I know the fake is thinner and lighter than the original but if you do not know how thick and how much the original weighs how do you tell the good from the bad.

[irishmedals]

Brendan and Gentlemen,

I am 99.99% certain this medal and ribbon is not one of the Australian replicas. I have seen those and the fake suspender bars are much bigger and have a rolling clasp instead of a pin. Although the ebay medal has a rolling clasp it is original as the later 1916 medals issued in the 1970s and 1980s did have this also. Also the ring affixing the medal to ribbon is correct, the fake medals have a larger, thinner ring which is open not soldered like the original. Colours on the ribbon are totally different to the original ribbon, plus the Oz ribbon was very thick and made of tightly woven cotton. The ribbon on the ebay medal looks original but as previously noted it is slightly wider than the suspender pin and looks brand new. Perhaps there were replacement ribbons made in the 1970s???

If that ebay medal was listed as having a replacement ribbon perhaps it would be more plausable, the fact the seller maintains it is all completely original makes me lose confidence in it as a purchaser. Unless it has concrete provenance i dont think i would consider purchasing a 1916 medal these days.

I think adding to a website the exact weights and sizes of a 1916 medal would encourage forgeries. I guess the only way to verify an original medal is to compare like with like and put a definate original alongside one for purchase. I think at this stage i'd have a good idea by looking whether it was fake or original but the unsuspecting buyer might not. I suppose at the end of the day if someone wants to fake medals they find ways and means to do it without seeing the weights and sizes on a website.

[Paul L Murphy]

The medal in question is a late issue piece and the ribbon is a replacement. There was replacement ribbon made in the late 80's and I suspect that is what it is. The Australian fakes do not have the correct level of detail on the reverse, especially around the letters, since they were originally made not to deceive collectors but to be hung in a frame as a replica display.

I agree that by trying to make the group sound better than it is the seller is actualyl shooting himself on the foot somewhat.

[Irish1916]

Should we invite the seller to read this thread ???

[Irish1916]

This picture shows two 1916 medals issued to the same man. One his original 1940's version and the other a replacement issued in 1988 (I have the paperwork from the Department of Defence) which he received when he thought he had lost the first and requested the second.

You can examine the difference in the weaves; the sizes compared to the top bar and note the ring size differences. It does not provide any definitive answer but adds fuel to the debate.