Porcelain Obersalzberg coffee mug

[fregatte]

here is a genuine mug that my great uncle got in April 1945 after Obersalzberg had been totally bombed and the population could take the leftovers with them. It was from the SS Barracks guard personnel.
Has there been a similar mug.?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

I think it being in the area does not mean it was military in any way.

If it was from an SS man he could have picked it up anywhere in the town.

Best

Chris

[nesredep]

Hi,

I think it being in the area does not mean it was military in any way.

If it was from an SS man he could have picked it up anywhere in the town.

Best

Chris

Hello!

I agree.

All the best

Nesredep

[fregatte]

Yes gentlemaen, but the mark on the underside clearly shows the SS mark in the letter B. How s that?

[John1919]

Yes gentlemaen, but the mark on the underside clearly shows the SS mark in the letter B. How s that?

The maker's mark is very similar in design to the Bohemia porcelain factory mark that was used after the SS took over administration of the factory. Bohemia produced mostly tableware during its tenure under the SS (consistent with the mark appearing on a coffee mug). Typically, however, the SS Bohemia mark was, as I recall, green and had BOHEMIA above the B. In this case, I would say provenance is everything if you are indeed sure of the history.

Best regards,

John

Edited March 20, 2008 by John1919

[fregatte]

Thank you John.

again to clearify the matter. These mugs were in use as standard mugs in the SS Guard Barracks. there were many of them but just the one I have survived.They were not picked up by an SSman in town, as one Gentleman stated-

regards

J?rgen

PS I am puzzled by the word Bohemia, whereas in German it would be Boehmen. I doubt if the SS used the english word for B?hmen.

[John1919]

Thank you John.

again to clearify the matter. These mugs were in use as standard mugs in the SS Guard Barracks. there were many of them but just the one I have survived.They were not picked up by an SSman in town, as one Gentleman stated-

regards

J?rgen

PS I am puzzled by the word Bohemia, whereas in German it would be Boehmen. I doubt if the SS used the english word for B?hmen.

J?rgen,

The SS Bohemia maker's mark drawing I posted above was from a reference source but I can not actually remember seeing an SS Bohemia maker's mark with "BOHEMIA" or "B?HMEN" except for the one present on my Bohemia Allach vase discussed in an earlier thread that appears to either be a prototype, presentation or transitional piece.

I have attached to this post a more typical SS Bohemia mark that is present on a German Red Cross cup that appeared on ebay several months ago. The mark on this cup is very similar to the mark on your mark.

If anyone has any other SS Bohemia maker's marks of validated authenticity it would be very helpful if you could post them for reference as I have not seen any examples in Huber's or Passmore's books.

Best regards,

John

Edited March 20, 2008 by John1919

[Stogieman]

I would expect that if "Bohemia" had been used at all; it would have been used on items manufactured strictly for export. Sort of like Hummels marked "Germany" as opposed to "Deutschland" during the 1930's. Same with after the war... Items were marked "US Zone Germany", "Occupied Japan" and eventually "Western Germany"... but for export as at the time US law (at least, I cannot comment on other countries) required the country of origin to be clearly marked on imported goods.

Pre-WW2 items were marked "Germany"... sometime in the 1950's "Made in Germany" started to appear. These marks have been useful gauges to manufacturing eras in porcelain, bisque and other wares whether china or children's toys for some time....

[John1919]

I would expect that if "Bohemia" had been used at all; it would have been used on items manufactured strictly for export. Sort of like Hummels marked "Germany" as opposed to "Deutschland" during the 1930's. Same with after the war... Items were marked "US Zone Germany", "Occupied Japan" and eventually "Western Germany"... but for export as at the time US law (at least, I cannot comment on other countries) required the country of origin to be clearly marked on imported goods.

Pre-WW2 items were marked "Germany"... sometime in the 1950's "Made in Germany" started to appear. These marks have been useful gauges to manufacturing eras in porcelain, bisque and other wares whether china or children's toys for some time....

Bohemia (in the context of the Bohemia Ceramic Works) is the name of the company (short for Bohemia Ceramic Works), NOT the designation of country of origin required to comply with import (export) laws.

Pre-war china, etc. manufactured by Bohemia Ceramic Works for export also contained a designation such as "Made in Czechoslovakia". I have attached a pre-war BOHEMIA export marking to exemplify.

I have also attached a second SS Bohemia marking for reference.

Best regards,

John

Edited March 20, 2008 by John1919

[John1919]

These mugs were in use as standard mugs in the SS Guard Barracks. there were many of them but just the one I have survived.They were not picked up by an SSman in town, as one Gentleman stated-

regards

J?rgen

I just also wanted to mention that there is substantial documentation [see Grabriele Huber's book (dissertation) on PMA] that Bohemia under SS control produced tableware for use by Germany's Red Cross and armed services. To me, it appears very plausible that this mug could have been issued to an SS unit.

Edited March 22, 2008 by John1919

[fregatte]

Hi John1919,

this is exactly what I had in mind. You got it right. I had no idea that there was a Bohemian porcellain manufacturer for the SS.

So, it was not merely Allach but other manufacturers as well-

Thank you very much indeed.

Juergen

[Chris Boonzaier]

I just also wanted to mention that there is substantial documentation [see Grabriele Huber's book (dissertation) on PMA] that Bohemia under SS control produced tableware for use by Germany's Red Cross and armed services. To me, it appears very plausible that this mug could have been issued to an SS unit.

Hi,

1) Did they also produce for the civilian market?

2) For the military, did they not go for functional and cheap? i.e. Designs hand painted usually raises the cost of an item, something the military tends to avoid.

3) Most military barracks have many items that are not "Issue", Our regimental bar and company clubs had glasses, plates and dishes bought on the civilian market as I am sure do similar things on base all over the world.

I dont doubt that this was found there... I just wonder if it can be seen as "Official issued item"

best

Chris

[John1919]

Hi,

1) Did they also produce for the civilian market?

2) For the military, did they not go for functional and cheap? i.e. Designs hand painted usually raises the cost of an item, something the military tends to avoid.

3) Most military barracks have many items that are not "Issue", Our regimental bar and company clubs had glasses, plates and dishes bought on the civilian market as I am sure do similar things on base all over the world.

I dont doubt that this was found there... I just wonder if it can be seen as "Official issued item"

best

Chris

Chris,

I am not sure after the acquisition of Bohemia by the SS, how much commercial production was devoted to its domestic market. On pages 37 and 38 of Gabriele Huber's Die Porzellan- Manufaktur Allach M?nchen GmbH, she indicates (as best as I can translate the really technical German language text of this reference) that Bohemia's export production (which was a very significant portion of its pre-1940 capacity) was substantially cut back to supply the Wehrmacht, Waffen SS and Rote Kreuz with tableware.

On the basis, I would suspect that supplying the Wehrmacht, Waffen SS and Rote Kreuz with tableware was probably also a higher priority for Bohemia than suppling the local population. Consistent with this inference is Huber's statement on page 38 of the same reference which states that (after 1941 as best as I can translate) utilitarian items were to be produced at Bohemia and decorative wares were to be produced at Allach. Accordingly, I would not rule out some of Bohemia's production finding its way into the civilian population, but it seems to me that Bohemia's primary mission after acquisition by the SS was to supply functional items for the Wehrmacht, Waffen SS and Rote Kreuz. Thus I would infer that more Bohemia's production wound up in Wehrmacht and Waffen SS barracks than in town.

As I stated, Huber's book is very difficult for one not fluent in the German language to translate. Accordingly, if there are any forum members fluent in German interested in helping to translate the corresponding text to insure that I have extracted its proper meaning, please feel free to contact me.

Best regards,

John

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

can you post scans of the pages?

Thanks

Chris

[John1919]

Hi,

can you post scans of the pages?

Thanks

Chris

Chis,

In order to honor the book's copywrite restrictions, it would be better for me to work with a translator on a personal basis that complies with these restrictions.

John

[fregatte]

Hi again,

to further clear the matter. The mug is from the kitchen hall of the SS Guard barracks of the Obersalzberg. these mugs were in use as standard issue for the SS personnel and not in the possession of one SS Man.

regards

Juergen

[fregatte]

Wehrmachtporzellan vom Tochterunternehmen der Porzellanmanufaktur Allach, der ?Bohemia? in Neurohlau, einem Betrieb des SS-Wirtschaftsverwaltungs-Hauptamtes (WVHA), S. 102-107

This is an article from the Magazine MILITATIA, which also deals with this matter.