The Legion of Frontiersmen

[Mike Smith]

Thank you for the image of the badges.  Over the years there have been many badges designed for the legion and which I will soonest try and upload some images of as many as I can locate.  I have several in my collection.  The badge set shown is quite an old set, not sure of the inclusive years but they are brass and probably pre WW2ish, some time later they started making sets in guilt, and then later again up until the present  the badges, identical in design being made in Staybrite.  This design is still the  same as those we wear here in New Zealand today.

Starting the images with a set of fairly resent cap & collars issued from Canada

The very rare Vancouver BC cap badge.

Canadian Legion War Service Overseas.

210th Battalion, Western Canada.

210th Western Canada shoulder title

 

Just an updater on my earlier post from '12 about the files I am building up of past members, it is currently up to over 15000 names worldwide and over half are New Zealanders, with details of the persons birth and death and military [or not] military service with copies of service files being acquired as well many photos of members and their headstones, and as time goes more information can be acquired.  I am also trying to purchase medal groups for members from NZ that includes as a minimum their Legion Long Service medal

Image of the 25th (Frontiersman) Battalion of the Royal Fusliers from WW1

[coldstream]

Mike,

Some superb badges you have there, the date you gave would tie in well with the group that came with the badges, here are the buttons.

[Mike Smith]

Another early cap badge

Still to be identified

Still to be identified 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Mike Smith

[Mike Smith]

 

An early set of buttons, no longer used

Early, probably 1920sish Imperial Frontiersman button

Another large early button in gilt

Disused Imperial button with matching shoulder title of the era

Edited June 22, 2017 by Mike Smith

[Mike Smith]

Current shoulder title

Old New Zealand 'Fern' collar badge.  Beware of this as there are good copies about the market

Canadian member badge & Associate  member badge

New Zealand members badge

New Zealand Woman's Auxiliary Legion of Frontiersmen  large domed badge from WWII.  Rarely seen today as there were very few manufactured and only three have been found in today's era

 

 

[coldstream]

Mike,

Again some excellent examples, most of which I have never seen..I wasn't aware of the differences between Countries badges, insignia etc.

Regards Simon

[Mike Smith]

I am hoping to fairly soon put together a self published book regarding the medals of the Legion to try and give people a way of identifying these

 

[coldstream]

Well done Mike, please let us all know when you publish the book, sure there will be others interested in seeing it.

Simon

[coldstream]

This item is on Ebay today, not sure of its authenticity.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Legion-of-Frontiersmen-Gilt-Copper-Medal-for-Long-Service-and-Efficiency-38mm-/232373238856?hash=item361a863c48:g:Z2UAAOSw3h1ZQpDH

Simon

[Mike Smith]

That one's design is that used in the UK since pre WWII, as I understand it the early ones were gilt and had a tiny ring suspension.  This one looks bronze and has a slightly larger ring, making it after WWII.  I have never heard of any of this design being named.  The ribbon is as below

This example is of a bronze strike from the mid 1990's

[coldstream]

Thanks Mike, nice to see the ribbon colours. 

Simon

Edited June 22, 2017 by coldstream

[peter monahan]

Yes, thank you, Mike, for sharing your knowledge and collection.  My acquatinace with the LOF is extremely slight, so much so that I was unaware that there were British members, though I did know of the CEF battalion they sponsored. 

[Mike Smith]

Way back about WW1 era the Legion had representatives in very part of the world, and as time went on these people migrated or died off and so things got drastically smaller.

It is thought that as there was a large group of NZer at Gallipoli in 1915, so much so that they were said to have held meetings under the guns, to the curiosity of the Turks.

New Zealand put some 8500 soldiers into the Gallipoli campaign.  So far I have found, and am still adding to, the 500 Legion members in my rolls that served there in those eight months of 1915.  In fact one of those in the battlefield was the Commandant for New Zealand at the time.  He later DOW and is buried at Ramleh War Cem, Israel and Palestine.  He earned the MC and MiD on the peninsula.

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by Mike Smith

[coldstream]

Recently found this Website dedicated to the Frontiersmen, worth look if you have the time.

http://www.frontiersmenhistorian.info/index.htm

Best regards Simon

[Jef]

Dear Gents,

Is there a possebility some Frontiersmen were active in Flanders in November/December 1918? A local diary speaks about Canadians with hats. As far as I'm concerned Canadiands didn't wear hats during WWI or am I wrong. Frontiersmen???

with kind regards,

Jef

[peter monahan]

Actually, there is photographic evidence that the Canadian Light Horse , a composite unit made up of squadrons from 3-4 Cdn pre-war cavalry units, including the 1st Hussars and perhaps the B.C Horse - mentioned in your Frontiersmen site.  They took their Stetsons to France with them.  I have a friend, ex-1st Hussars, who wears one as part of our educational programme.  At least one of the Canadian Mounted Rifles units also had them, in Canada, probably England and maybe France, before their conversion to infantry and, oddly, some officers of the PPCLI also wore them as a personal affectation, though again not sure whether that survived as far as France.

So, if you have a photo of men in Stetsons in Flanders in 1918, I'd say the odds are on them being Light Horsemen, not Frontiersmen.  As far as I know - no expert - the Frontiersmen never saw action as a unit, thought the 210th CEF Battalion bore the subsidiary title 'Frontiersmen', presumably from as an indication that the original cadre included some of them. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by peter monahan

[Mike Smith]

The 25th Battalion (Frontiersmen) Royal Fusiliers was a British unit made up entirely of Frontiersmen, saw action as a unit in East Africa in 1916

Photo of the 210th cap badge

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Mike Smith

[Jef]

1 hour ago, peter monahan said:

Actually, there is photographic evidence that the Canadian Light Horse , a composite unit made up of squadrons from 3-4 Cdn pre-war cavalry units, including the 1st Hussars and perhaps the B.C Horse - mentioned in your Frontiersmen site.  They took their Stetsons to France with them.  I have a friend, ex-1st Hussars, who wears one as part of our educational programme.  At least one of the Canadian Mounted Rifles units also had them, in Canada, probably England and maybe France, before their conversion to infantry and, oddly, some officers of the PPCLI also wore them as a personal affectation, though again not sure whether that survived as far as France.

So, if you have a photo of men in Stetsons in Flanders in 1918, I'd say the odds are on them being Light Horsemen, not Frontiersmen.  As far as I know - no expert - the Frontiersmen never saw action as a unit, thought the 210th CEF Battalion bore the subsidiary title 'Frontiersmen', presumably from as an indication that the original cadre included some of them. 

Dear Peter,

Thank you for your answer. I'm afraid I don't have a photograph. The only thing I read in memoirs ( written in 1980) is that the soldiers wore cowboy hats and were Canadiens???? That's why I was thinking of frontiersmen...

kind regards,

Jef

 

[peter monahan]

Yes, the famous 'Stetson', now mainly associated with the Royal Canadian Mouned Police, were issued to mounted units of the Canadian militia/army first for the Boer war and then, briefly at least, for WWI.  They were also, of course, standard wear, in various configurations, by cowboys.  I believe the 'Mountie' and Cdn Horse configuration - with 4 equal sized indentations in the sides - was sometimes called 'Montana' style.

[Jef]

Thank you Peter for this. Wondering which Canadian mounted units were here in South West Flanders, Belgium, december 1918?  The area was liberated end October 1918 by the Second Army. The only "geographical Canadians" who fought here was the 1st /Newfoundland Rgt. That time British dominion.

with kind regards from Flanders,

Jef

[peter monahan]

The Canadian Cavalry Brigade served in their mounted role throughtout the 100 Days offensive.  Not sure where they ended up after the Armstice.  Here's a link to a fairly detailed examination of their role, including during 1918: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.945.5042&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Edited July 16, 2017 by peter monahan

[Jef]

Thank you Peter once more. A few years ago I published a study for the Belgian branch WFA  about the Second and Fifth Armies during 8-11 november 1918. I'm afraid there were no Canadian troops. But at the right side of the Fifth army was the zone of the First Army. Some parts  were Canadian sectors. I will check these sectors. Now I know Canadian mounted troops wore stettons  I will check Edmonds' official history , Becke's Order of Battle and James Battles and engagements.

With kind regards,

Jef

[peter monahan]

Jef, I can't comment on exactly where the Cdns were, though I certainly believe you when you say that south-west Flanders was a 'Canadian-free zone'.  

The Kiwis wore a 'lemon squeezer' style Stetson hat too, but I have no idea whether or not their mounted units were re-mounted.  As I say, the Cdn Light Horse got their horses back for teh 100 days and served as a cavalry screen for the Cdn divisions, doing some good service in that taditional mounted role.

My [very limited] knwledge of the CEf isn't up to saying exactly where they were.  Pity the memit wasn't more detailed.  It may remain a mystery.

Peter

[Jef]

Thank you Peter,

The fact it was written in  memoirs ( ca. 1980)  makes it sometimes hard to believe. Wish I found a diary with more detailed information.

At a moment I even was thinking about Americans, because the 91st and 37th US divisions were in the area. But I was told they wore their overseas cap and not the campaing hat.

kind regards,

Jef

[peter monahan]

Jef

I'm not nearly old enough to have been in Flanders and yet I have very firm memories of 'seeing' things in my younger days which my rational mind tell me did not occur.  I can very easily imagine a WWI vet who did see Canadian mounted troops in Stetsons remembering that as having happened in Nov/Dec '18 in SW Flanders when in fact it happened, but not then or not there.  

My two cents worth on 'memoirs'!  My own memoirs will be highly entertaining and parts of them will be very accurate too.  However, the accurate parts may not be entertaining and th entertaining parts may not be accurate, to paraphrase an old professor of mine.

Peter