Hungary Hungarian Field Police

[Gordon Williamson]

I've seen these Gorgets turn up from time to time over the years, both with Tabori Biztonsag and Csendor on the scroll.

I've also seen in more recent times, claims that they are being reproduced, but never any evidence of this or information as to how the supposed copies differ from originals.

Anyone have any info on these ?

[hunyadi]

Gordon -

The Csendor (Field Police - Gendermarie) gorget was introduced in August of 1944 so that German forces could easily recognize the security forces. This was follwed in November of 1944 by the "Tabori Biztonsag" (Camp Security Forces) and finnaly by the NSZK (Nemzeti Szamonkeres Kozpontja - Central National "Rekoning" - IE - Jewish and Communist cleansing forces) Roham Szazad (Battle Company) This particular gorget was introduced in the early weeks of 1945.

Yes - they are heavily faked and from my information from surviving dies. I have had many opportunities to aquire one, but with little certainty that any of them are original period items. As these were manufactured in the last days of the war in Hungary I doubt that few have survived.

Below is a photo of the rare NSZK gorget from the Hungarian Military Museum for comparison

[Gordon Williamson]

Many thanks for the info. I haven't found much in print about these, but those books that do have some reference to them usually translate Täbori Biztonsäg literally as Field Security. Wouldn't Camp Security be Täbort Biztonsäg ? Or was it a deliberate attempt at obfuscation re their real purpose ?

Interesting that the copies are reputedly made from the original tooling. That would explain why it would so difficult to determine originality ( and why what should be a rare and expensive piece doesn't command a high price). I suppose the situation is akin to that for the 1914 Bar to the 1870 Iron Cross with no one absolutely sure which ones are good and which are bad.

Strange though that if the original tooling is still around, its only the Täbori Biztonsäg that turns up with any frequency. I've never actually seen a Csendor or NSZK for sale.

The reason I asked about the copies is that one of these Gorgets appeared on EBay last week and had one small difference to others I have seen in that the font used for the serial number on the reverse was different. I thought perhaps that might be a feature which would help determine originality.

The influx of fakes from Eastern Europe seems a fairly recent phenomenon but I recall seeing these Gorgets back in the late 70s/early 80s when Hungary was still very much under Communist rule so I presume these at least may have been originals as its hard to imagine a cottage industry making replica "facist" Gorgets being tolerated back then. But then I suppose the point is the difficulty in determining any currently made copies from surviving originals if they are made on the original tooling.

[hunyadi]

The term 'Field Security' is probably bettter - though my understanding was that they were simply MP's - in camp or barracks situations...so take your pick...

The Csendor and NSZK Gorgets do show up from time to time - but you are correct - the Tabori are the more common. AS for fakes in the 1970's; all one has to do is look at the Pilots Dress Daggers - another item whose dies survived the war....these have been made for the collcetors here as far back as then. I cna't really explain the need for it back then - but people today make a pretty penny on Ebay for some very questionable examples...

[Gordon Craig]

Gordon,

Here are a couple of pictures of a fake TÄBORI BIZTONSÄG gorget. Because of the difficulty in authenticating one of these pieces I decided to buy one of these inexpensive copies to display with my Hungarian uniforms. As one would expect, it looked a lot better on ebay than it did in person but I really have no complaint considering what I paid for it.

With the close up pictures I've attached, it is easy to see the problems with this particular piece. For instance;

1-the stamping is poor for the backing plate. You can see excess material on the viewers left hand side.

2-the prong on the back on the viewers left is a cheap piece of tin.

I am sure, with a real one to compare it to, there would be lots of other imperfections/differences apparent. Unfortunately, museums are not noted for displaying authentic pieces and Hunyadi and I have seen enough doubtful items at the Military Museum here in Budapest to take everything we see with a grain of salt. Even the curators at the museum can not be sure 100% of the time that the artifacts they have are authentic.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

The reverse of the gorget.

[Gordon Williamson]

Brilliant !

Thanks for that Gordon. Just the kind of info I was hoping might turn up. I have some good close ups of repdutedly original pieces to compare with so it will be interesting to study them and see what else I can spot. Much obliged !

I want to include pics of one in a future book on the Feldgendarmerie so want to make sure, as far as possible, that the photos I use are of a real one!

If you spot a Csendor fake for sale, please let me know. Wouldn't mind buying a copy to illustrate one of the fakes in the book.

[Gordon Craig]

Gordon,

Glad that you found the photos useful. If there is any more info on this fake you would like such as weight, dimensions etc. just ask. If I see a fake Csendor gorget for sale I'll certainly let you know.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Williamson]

Gordon,

Glad that you found the photos useful. If there is any more info on this fake you would like such as weight, dimensions etc. just ask. If I see a fake Csendor gorget for sale I'll certainly let you know.

Regards,

Gordon

Gordon

I guess that if they are using the original tools, the dimensions will be accurate but if they aren't using the correct material, or thinner material the weight might be out, so yes indeed, a note of the weight of yours would be very useful.

[Gordon Craig]

Gordon,

No guarantee that the one I have was made with the original tools. It came to me from England but could have originated any where. It weighs 88 grams.

Regards,

Gordon

[iharos]

Gentlemen, I would like to add this genuine gorget to this forum.

Edited June 19, 2008 by iharos

[Gordon Craig]

iharos,

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for posting your original gorget. I would appreciate seeing a picture of the back and also the hook on the end of the chain.

Are there any markings on it? If so, pictures of them would be very much appreciated.

Where do you live in Hungary? I live on the Buda side of Budapest. If you are close by, I would like to able to visit and see the gorget first hand. Especially the box for it.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited June 19, 2008 by Gordon Craig

[iharos]

Thank you Gordon. I don't live in Hungary, just an indication of my interests. Here is the back of the gorget and there is no box with it.

[Gordon Craig]

iharos,

Thanks for the additional photos. Very nice reference. What I thought was the box must be a document that came with it then. That must be more rare than the gorget. Looking forward to more posts from you. What are your particular areas of interest in Hungarian Militaria?

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Williamson]

Hi Gordon,

Have you seen this book ? Interestingly, although there are a couple of shots of the gorgets themselves, none of the wartime photos show the gorget being worn.

[hunyadi]

Gordon - I have seen a photo of the gorget in wear - but I stupidly did not buy it as the picture was a distance shot - you could only make out that it was a Hungarian uniform and that a gorget was being worn....

As for that book - WOW - never seen it! It must be a very rare item

[Gordon Craig]

Charles,

I had a picture of a Csendor, or at least a guy in a Hungarian uniform, on a horse wearing a gorget but I mus have deleted it as I can not find it now. It came from a Csendor site and I guess I'll have to go looking for it again. For my next brilliant move!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,

Gordon

[iharos]

Gordon, Is this the picture?

http://www.csendor.com/kepek/egyenek/bigim...sendor%2030.jpg

[Gordon Williamson]

Superb photograph ! Wonderful web site also, thanks for posting the link.

[Gordon Craig]

iharos,

Yes that was the picture I was refering to and probably the same web site. Thanks for posting it.

Cheers,

Gordon

[iharos]

iharos,

What are your particular areas of interest in Hungarian Militaria?

Regards,

Gordon

This...

[Gordon Craig]

iharos,

Ok then, Csendor it is. Good luck in this collecting field. Not much of it available but worth persuing. I have one Csendor tunic but have never been able to come up with a hat of any type.

Cheers,

Gordon

[kraut]

Gentleman,s here my collection.

[nesredep]

Gentleman,s here my collection.

Hello!

Amazing items.

All the best

Nesredep

[kraut]

Thank's!