Heres a Bar on Evilbay.... (Baden career NCO)

[notned]

Hello Gents,

Found this bar lurking on Evilbay...seller does not give any info, so i'd thought to have a surf to find out what i could, so i could only find a close resemblance to the Baden Merit cross of the order of Zahringer Lowens

for the first one thats assuming that the second medal is with the wrong ribbon as it looks like a Baden War Merit Cross , thens theres the Centarmedaille, and then, the 1870-71 war medal, the next missing one in Yellow??? and the last one??? cannot find anything about that sort of ribbon so far...

Does anyone know the link to the site where he has a page dedicated to german imperial ribbons and how to identify?? Please send the link! i miss not having that for reference...( instead of having to annoy the gents with dumb questions... )

I wonder then...if the medals for this bar are not that rare so it could be assembled again??? i guess when i know for sure what they are, i will be then, able to ferret around and find out..lol

Cheers,

Paul

[Dave Danner]

It should be the Merit Cross, a couple of merit medals, either a KDM or a WW1 Honor Cross, the Centenary Medal, a Bronze Jubilee Medal and a Baden DA 1.Klasse. Both merit medals are missing, as well as the Jubilee Medal and the KDM/Honor Cross.

Reassembling the bar would be difficult, as the second medal is likely a Large or Small Gold Merit Medal, and based on the era, would be in real gold. It is possible, though, that it is two Silver Merit Medals, one from Friedrich I and one from Friedrich II.

[Stogieman]

... and the Centennial should be moved behind the KDM. My guess would be definately legit bar, ca. 1895/1900 based on style/materials. Definately pre-1913, but concur on the difficulty in locating both a Gold & Silver Merit Medal. The Merit Cross of the BZL will not be real easy to find either. They're out there, but very hard to find! Especially from Friedrich I

[Dave Danner]

... and the Centennial should be moved behind the KDM. My guess would be definately legit bar, ca. 1895/1900 based on style/materials. Definately pre-1913, but concur on the difficulty in locating both a Gold & Silver Merit Medal. The Merit Cross of the BZL will not be real easy to find either. They're out there, but very hard to find! Especially from Friedrich I

It's post-1902 by the Jubilee Medal.

Looking more closely, to judge by the placement of the hooks, it should be a small gold and a large silver Merit Medal. The Merit Cross is already there. The missing Jubilee is a $40-$50 item. A Friedrich I silver Merit Medal is at least $100, and I've only ever seen one small gold (and it was $800).

The only odd thing is the lack of a Baden Felddienstauszeichnung.

[notned]

Hello Gents,

Thankyou for your replies, much appreciated!

So from what info i can gather..the first medal is actually on the bar in the wrong place so is the Centarmedaille.

Now the Baden DA?? is this supposed to be on the last place? what does this medal look like?

And the war merit cross...its not even supposed to be there?

Thanks again Gents!

Paul

[Dave Danner]

Hello Gents,

Thankyou for your replies, much appreciated!

So from what info i can gather..the first medal is actually on the bar in the wrong place so is the Centarmedaille.

Now the Baden DA?? is this supposed to be on the last place? what does this medal look like?

And the war merit cross...its not even supposed to be there?

Thanks again Gents!

Paul

The Baden DA is a Schnalle, or clasp. What's there is all there is to it. It was not normally worn on a ribbon bar, but when it was, this was how it appeared.

The War Merit Cross doesn't belong there. Whether it was part of the group (i.e., the guy might have helped out as a retired soldier/civil servant and never added the medal to his pre-war bar) we can't know.

[Stogieman]

ahhh, I've got it now.... the Merit Cross is in the back. My fast look and I thought it was a Long Service Cross..... hmmm, makes it interesting..

[Dave Danner]

Here is an example from J?rg Kalies of a Baden DA Schnalle:

[Stogieman]

Dave's eyes are better than mine! I'd agree, small gold, large silver looking at the hooks. That will be a tough one to find, but would make for a long & fun search. That's at least half the fun of this to me, the hunt itself.

[Stogieman]

Dave, do you know off the top of your head when the War Merit Cross was instituted? Might date the bar into WW1, not pre-1913? Although, it would be very unusual to see a WW1, or later bar with the spange mounted like this.

[Dave Danner]

Dave, do you know off the top of your head when the War Merit Cross was instituted? Might date the bar into WW1, not pre-1913? Although, it would be very unusual to see a WW1, or later bar with the spange mounted like this.

9 September 1916.

I would doubt that it is a WW1 bar due to the lack of other awards and the fact that the KVK is not mounted (none of the ribbons is even a close approximation).

[Stogieman]

Hi Dave, thanks. So the ribbon next to the D/A (that holds the merit cross right now) is probably for the Jubilee Medal?

[Dave Danner]

Yes. Yellow with a wide red stripe on each side.

[Stogieman]

OK, I'm back to 1897-1913 for a date on this puppy.

[notned]

Dave! I take my hat off to you!

Your Knowledge astounds me...Impressive indeed!

Thankyou for all your help here gents! thats what this site is all about!

Regards

Paul

[Claudio]

Dear all,

Just a detail more: the Verdienstkreuz of the Order "Z?hringer der L?wen" should be worn on the first ribbon (yellow with two parallel narrow green stripes). This ribbon was meant for the VK in peacetime. In war time or for merits at the front the VK was awarded to senior NCOs with the war time ribbon (yellow with wide red stripe in the middle).

Ciao,

Claudio

[Stogieman]

Thanks Claudio! A good point, I just assume we all know that the first ribbon with reversed BZL colors was for the Merit Cross. Good observation!

[Claudio]

Thanks Rick...

Here's a picture of a bar with the VK OZL on Friedensband supporting my statement.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Stogieman]

Nice bar Claudio, which auction? That's only the second enameled Baden LS Bar I've seen!!

[Claudio]

It was on Thies Auction... tried to bid on it, unfortunately I wasn't successful. It's a very simple but to me "sexy" bar. The enameled Baden's LS Bar denotes a quite a delicate touch and particularly good taste of the wearer who had surely to be very "fashion aware" and maybe quite a rich guy... I've already seen such enameled LS bar beauties but only on Prussian medal bars, not on Baden's medal bars, which makes this bar definitely something rarer and very desirable.

Something for our "Badener fetish" aka Antti...

Ciao,

Claudio

Nice bar Claudio, which auction? That's only the second enameled Baden LS Bar I've seen!!

[Stogieman]

I think Dave Danner will be pretty thrilled too. He's a big Baden buff!

[Stogieman]

Final price ~ 550- Euro, $660USD. pretty high for a parts bar to restore. When you're done with adding what's missing, you'll be pretty heavy into this one..........

[saschaw]

The third enameled Baden LS Bar I've ever seen: one has been one Ebay.de last year, another one has been lying around at Stuttgart's IWB 2005.

 

Claudio said:

It was on Thies Auction... tried to bid on it, unfortunately I wasn't successful.

I'm really glad my father has bought the Thies Bar, but the bar on Ebay will also be really great, when all medal are replaced ...

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by saschaw

[saschaw]

On 11/10/2005 at 17:17, Dave Danner said:

It is possible, though, that it is two Silver Merit Medals, one from Friedrich I and one from Friedrich II.

Are you sure, Dave? I'm not aware of one such case, and can hardly imagine how this could have happened. After all, it was technically the very same award. What I have seen is one group with two silver merit medals on the Karl Friedrich ribbon, one for Southwest Africa and one from the Great War. That's much different circumstances, and even there, I'm not sure if it might have been a mistake... (but what else to give to an NCO...)

 

On 11/10/2005 at 19:46, Dave Danner said:

The only odd thing is the lack of a Baden Felddienstauszeichnung.

Only if we assume an 1870 medal in bronze! This group works out perfectly fine, for example for a Gendarmerie NCO, with a "stay at home" steel medal.

 

 

[saschaw]

On 07/08/2023 at 22:35, saschaw said:

Only if we assume an 1870 medal in bronze! This group works out perfectly fine, for example for a Gendarmerie NCO, with a "stay at home" steel medal.

Here's a nice photo I obtained recently, with a similar medal bar being worn. A Badener with an 1870 medal on the combatant ribbon, but with no Felddienstauszeichnung strongly suggests a steel stay-at-home medal I'd say...