Fake A known modern fabricator of WW2 German ribbon bars

[Lapa]

Rick,

You are a master of wordmanship!

I wholeheartedly agree with your position (although I swim in another pool than yours) and I couldn't have put it any better than you did.

Marc

[Guest Gerst]

Wow, let's all calm down!

Here are some facts:

I crank out a few ribbon bars and sell them on eBay - one, two even five-place bars. I use normally orginal materials. I try to put them in the right order. They look nice. I'm not flooding the market with garbage, I'm providing a service - original copies. You can buy copies of the Mona Lisa. I didn't see the anybody protesting at the Louvre when I was there last year. They were even selling copies!

I am a little fish. I make a few bars. Most are so obviously "fake" that if a "collector" bought them he'd have to have half his brain removed first. I make Rommel bars and Sepp Dietrich bars too - have you seen the crap on the internet lately? I try to make mine properly so the buyer at least has a bar that looks half-way correct.

Another thought - My father was a career soldier. He joined the Reichswehr as soon as he turned 20. He was still a soldier the day I watched him die in 1977. Some guy took his EKII while he was a POW. I had to buy one to replace it. It is now on my wall with the rest of his medals and stuff. When I die ( I am 63) whose EKII is it? Is it his? If not, whose is it? Who will care?

People who love history want to own a part of it. Why shouldn't they have that?

One last question: Ribbon bars were assembled by tailors all over Germany. When the Amis broke into their shops and filled their duffle bags with "GOODIES," were the ribbon bars "real?" I assemble my bars 50 plus years later. Mine are just as real as the bars in those duffel bags.

I was born in Berlin in December 1944. Every male in my family as far back as the records go (and I have most of them) was a soldier. I served my time too. I appreciate what soldiers do. I also want others to share in this appreciation and making good ribbon bars is one way I can do this.

Like Nixon said, "I am not a crook!" I am a craftsman and a student of history (I have a masters degree in history). Please don't put me down for sharing my love for military history with others.

MfG

Gerst

Edited August 22, 2008 by Gerst

[Guest Gerst]

Rick, I have to respond directly to you (and to your buddy in Leningrad).

You guys seem to have a real problem. I have never destroyed a ribbon bar to make another In fact I have bought "parts" from other eBayers and put them on a bar as intended.

To be quite frank, what I am doing is quite legal. I am 100% up front with my product. I improve all the time. The day I can make an exact duplicate so good that even you can't tell the difference, that will be the day! It is almost like a challenge.

As I said before, I don't need to buy someone else's history, I have my own. I even made some of it myself - I earned my share of medals. Accusations like yours and those like you fall on deaf ears here in Texas. I will continue to offer a quality product at a fair price (I listed two new bars on eBay today, clearly identified as reproductions, and you should see my offerings on Manions).

If you collector guys are so insecure that you fear my silly little bars, then I feel for you! Watch out! The next bar you buy might be one of mine!

All the best fron the Lone Star State,

Gerst

Edited August 22, 2008 by Gerst

[Guest Gerst]

Ok I give. I will identify my bars by immediately mounting my ribbons upside-down (with the possible exception of the Afrika ribbon, which I will mount one way, then the other, based on a coin-toss).

That solves it.

Thanks,

Gerst

[Guest Gerst]

Rick - Please seek professional help immediately.

MfG

Gerst

[Eric Stahlhut]

sorry gerst but i have to say that what you are trying to do here is futile. there is no way you can try to defend/justify what you are doing and expect acceptance here--remember: this forum is dedicated to collecting AUTHENTIC items. please don't try to obfuscate things by bringing up the history of how things were 'looted' by the evil allied conquerors, etc... like the axis forces never looted or plundered....or how you use only the finest period materials...c'mon...

perhaps you should find a fantasy reenactors forum.

i have to commend your pluck for trying to present your point of view, though. but for me, your actions are unacceptable.

"you can't polish a turd"

Edited August 23, 2008 by Eric Stahlhut

[Guest Gerst]

Why do you resort to crude terminology?

I don't have to justify what I do any more than you have to justify your "hobby." Some consider collecting Nazi items to be repugnant.

As for my "genuine" ribbon bars, they are authentic, just a few years too late. Live with it. I'll keep making them until the supply of authentic parts runs out or I do.

Most of my products are almost 100% copies which an idiot would recognize as such. If you hobbyists are so insecure in your ability to tell a copy from an original then I suggest you take up stamp collecting.

Gerst

[Paul R]

OK guys... cease fire on both sides. As a collector and a former re-enactor, I can understand both sides of the argument. The way I see it is that if someone sells a product and is 100% open about it, there is nothing further that needs to be addressed.

It is not a gun company's fault when a kid breaks into a house, steals a weapon and does something illegal with it. It is the fault of the person who actually perpetuates the crime. He should pay the price.

Gerst, I have never seen your work before, so I have no comment on how close it is to the real deal. I agree with making some sort of permanent mark (certain nick on the pin or a black sharpee marker dot on a certain area of the backing) so it would make things easier for the less experienced collectors. It might not be a failsafe(to people who do not know about how you mark your product), but you can always say you did what you could!

I am glad that Gerst came here. I am sure that he did so in good faith. I wish that more makers of reproduction pieces would do the same! IT would make our lives so much easier. Instead of attacking him, we should be working together to come up with a happy medium.

A person is a faker only if their intent is to defraud someone. I dont see this with what Gerst has written so far.

[Eric Stahlhut]

first off, i'd like to apologize for being blunt. it was not directed towards you personally.

it's merely a term used to describe the situation, imo.

perhaps you could use one of those invisible ink uv markers to write the word "fake" on the ribbons. that might help a bit. that way the opportunists who buy your items with the intent to deceive novice collectors and make a quick profit will be hampered in their efforts.

[Paul R]

perhaps you could use one of those invisible ink uv markers to write the word "fake" on the ribbons. that might help a bit. that way the opportunists who buy your items with the intent to deceive novice collectors and make a quick profit will be hampered in their efforts.

Now that is a great idea. A mark that will not distract from the appearance of the product!! Those markers are fairly inexpensive, right?

[Guest Rick Research]

"A person is a faker only if their intent is to defraud someone."

Regretably this is not so. I certainly "credit" the current incarnation of Doctor Frankenstein about being honest about his gruesome handiwork (despite the destruction of original items to mass produce junk, when reproduction materials would serve the same purpose, DUH ) BUT--

A poppy grower is only growing pretty flowers. So what if the END USER kills a convenience store clerk in a robbery for a quick fix?

Putting BAD ITEMS INTO CIRCULATION

puts BAD ITEMS INTO CIRCULATION.

There is no way to excuse, justify, defend, or rationalize that.

Rex Reddick ALSO sells tractor trailer loads of "re-enactor" rubbish (BTW, have never seen "re-enactors" with inscribed naval blades, full S.A. kit with those replica daggers, "replica" helmet decals for "replica" helmets etc etc et freakin cetera) and no doubt loves puppies, apple pie, and his grandchildren...

and his products fly right out his warehouse doors into the hands of crooks, chisellers, and cheats defrauding the inexperienced and unwary everywhere.

"Clean hands?"

NO.

[Guest Gerst]

I had been thinking about stamping the metal brackets with a code, like xxx, but that can't be seen after the bar is assembled. I could also mark the pin, but that could be sanded off. The invisible marker is a great idea. Would it show up with a black light or something? Please tell me more. I could still stamp all my brackets.

Let me know more about the marker idea.

Gerst

[Paul R]

This one seems good... The first product on the top of the page is permanent. You would write with big letters the word. FAKE on the backs and even the front, that way someone wont simply change out the backing. According to the ad, it would only been seen under a black light!

http://www.unitednuclear.com/markers.htm

[Guest Gerst]

I can handle that, but I would prefer to use the word "Reproduction" rather than "fake." Fake sounds shady, almost dishonest. I'll buy the pens and start marking my work immediately. I will also stamp a "G" on each bracket in case somebody decides to cannibalize one of my bars.

I realize that this won't satisfy all of the hobbyists out there, but it will satisfy some of you. As I stated above, my big bars are so obviously "fake" that they wouldn't fool anybody - I fabricate the brackets myself and try to use only reproduction ribbons and devices on these. Putting genuine ribbons on a bar like that is a real waste! I'll mark those bars as well.

I sincerely hope that the people who buy my bars don't circulate them improperly. Most of them seem like nice chaps and I like to think that I am just helping them enjoy something that I enjoy too.

Best regards,

Gerst

[Paul R]

I can handle that, but I would prefer to use the word "Reproduction" rather than "fake." Fake sounds shady, almost dishonest. I'll buy the pens and start marking my work immediately. I will also stamp a "G" on each bracket in case somebody decides to cannibalize one of my bars.

I realize that this won't satisfy all of the hobbyists out there, but it will satisfy some of you. As I stated above, my big bars are so obviously "fake" that they wouldn't fool anybody - I fabricate the brackets myself and try to use only reproduction ribbons and devices on these. Putting genuine ribbons on a bar like that is a real waste! I'll mark those bars as well.

I sincerely hope that the people who buy my bars don't circulate them improperly. Most of them seem like nice chaps and I like to think that I am just helping them enjoy something that I enjoy too.

Best regards,

Gerst

I appreciate you taking the effort to do this. It really does mean a lot and you have shown a huge amount of good will by continuing with this thread.

Just out of curiosity, how many pieces have you sold thus far(are we talking about a dozen or hundreds)? Could you please show us some examples of your bars along with any craftsmanship specifics that are unique to the reproductions you produce? This way, we know what to look for in case someone wants to start selling their bars on Ebay or etc. Also, are there any individuals who are buying more than a few pieces from you(Just a yes or no question)? These are the people I would be scared of buying with the purpose of resale.

[landsknechte]

As a reenactor myself, I'm left wondering why anyone would sell oddball combinations on eBay allegedly aimed at the reenactor market. Excepting those freakish few "solo" reenactors who generally pin as much bling-bling on themselves before subjecting everyone else at an event to their half assed impersonation of some high ranking grand poobah, the overwhelming majority of reenactors know exactly what they're in the market for. They've all been awarded whatever they've been awarded by the group, and will be limited to that combination. Randomly throwing pre-made ribbon bars into the market seems like either a poor business decision, or an attempt at fraud. Anyone who doesn't manufacture them to order really makes me question the legitimacy of their intentions, or their intelligence. There are some combinations shown here that are likely to be applicable to almost no reenactors on the planet.

[Guest Gerst]

I began assembling a few custom bars (6 or 7) late last year. These were all genuine brackets but post-war ribbons and devices. They were 6 to 9-place bars with unusual (some improper - as requested by the buyer) placement so these would not pose a problem. I didn't really gear up until March of this year.

I have often sold the same configuration several times on eBay - my "RAD Pionier" bar was especially popular. There's not much flexibiity on eBay so I have to limit my auctions to bars which do not show the dreaded HK symbol. Combinations like KVKII/Ostfront and EKII/KVKII are popular, and the hard-to-get Romanian and Spanish ribbons do well also.

Size - any bar I sell 6-place or larger is almost always 100% reproduction. Large brackets are hard to find now. There are European dealers who recently began ordering copies of wartime brackets - that is a bad sign for you collector fellows. That means that there will soon be a bunch of larger bars which may well be sold as genuine. I will not use these. That is totally beyond what I think is correct. My goal has always been to produce a reasonably-priced, attractive and well-made bar using as many genuine "parts" as possible. If I make a reenactor bar or a "reproduction" bar or "personality bar," it will have as many reproduction "parts" as I can find. These are easy to spot. The ribbons are limp and hard to align. They don't "shine" like the real ones (like the Anschluss or the Luftschutz, which rare beautiful).

I have probably sold three dozen to eBayers, most "on line" and others were direct contacts for bars. Not all buyers are in the US - 1/3 to 1/2 are foreign. Guys have bought a couple at a time, some fellows have uniforms and they have bought more. I think most of the buyers get the bars for personal use. I didn't get the impression that anyone was "stocking up." I have also sold about 20 custom bars (some personality bars) to a US dealer who specializes in reproduction goods and these were almost all easily recognizable copies.

I will be happy to post photos of the larger bars with genuine "parts." I have almost constant offerings on eBay so these photos are readily available. In fact, I will be happy to post photos of the larger custom bars as I make and mail them so that you will be able to track these. Is that something you would lie to see?

Gerst

[Guest Gerst]

There is nothing random about my ribbon bar "configurations." I have been an eBayer for many years. I noticed that the ribbon bar offerings were pretty much the same stuff over and over again. I have looked at as many internet sources as I could find to locate unusual combinations. I also have to work within the eBay "hateful items" limitations. Long service bars (except for the 4-year RAD and SS) are next to impossible to get past the watchdogs. Some of my offerings are aimed at fellows with reproduction uniforms. These fellows are not going to buy an expensive genuine bar and pin it to their "Hong-kong special." I can sell them a good looking bar for less than $100, and my eBay bars are a lot less expensive than that.

My " business sense" must be alright. It took me three months to become a "Power Seller." There's a simple explanation - my stuff sells because people like it and the prices are reasonable.

Gerst

[Nick]

Gerst

I really find your sense of morality, your view of what history is and the way you have deemed to preserve history rather warped to say the least.

This forum is for military collectors. You said yourself that you are not a collector; you are simply an entrepreneur looking at making some quick money out of market demands. Did you really expect to come to a military collector?s community, sell us your spin, and receive some kind of acceptance and understanding for what you?

You are the very model of antipathy to every genuine military collector !

Yes no doubt some of your ribbon bars will go to the groups to which you try and justify your trade i.e. re-enactors. But as you no doubt realise, the majority will be going to less scrupulous individuals and dealers who will look at ripping off and selling them on as original genuine wartime items to this very community. Your friendly tones cut no ice here old chap.

You try to justify your position by wrapping it all up in some historical preservation ideal by using original parts and ribbons and that you, being the son of a German veteran, gives you some kind of right to do so. All flimflam, smoke and mirrors or as you would say in Texas BS.

You have no intentions of marking your items fake, as you know that it would reduce your sales. Genuine re-enactors would have no issue with an item being clearly marked as reproduction as you would not see the marking stamped on the rear. But you know that would reduce your sales, as the majority of them go to fellow charlatans and fraudsters.

You are not welcome here as this forum is for Military Collectors. You by your own admission are not one, nor are you a friend to this community.

[Guest Niblet]

Gerst,,take your post war made crap and go somewhere else,,I am a new collector and people like you are destroying my chosen hobby before I can even get a decent collection going! I cant even begin to explain how wrong what your doing is,,,,if I have to explain it to you ,you wouldnt understand!

[Guest Gerst]

I am sorry so many of you are mad at me but as long as there are buyers, I will continue to make and sell my bars. You fellows seem to be more worried about the value of your collections than preserving your "hobby." My bars are no threat to you - they are clearly copies which a novice would quickly recognize. I have even agreed to mark them for you.

Your verbal attacks are insulting to me. I probably know more about German military history and "militaria" than 99% of you. What is more, I have lived it.

I am a small fish - there are mass-production operations all over the world. Give me a break. At least I am honest about it. Get a life, and goodbye. You'll not hear from me again.

Gerst

[Guest Rick Research]

Hallelujah !!!