Cut Out Pilot Badge?

[Lee Moore]

Hello All,

This sold on Ebay recently and was curious about it. The seller generally stated that it was made as a ?post war commercial piece? by ?Roth & Neffe jewelry? of Vienna and he bought it a few years ago as ?old stock?. Here is the link http://cgi.ebay.com:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...ME:B:EF:US:1123. I guess post war could mean anywhere from 1919 to 2008. Is this strictly a fantasy piece? I realize jewelers did make replacement pieces well after WWI, and I assume after WWII, but I guess my question is why would a Vienna jeweler make a replacement imperial Prussian badge unless it was in the time period of 1938-1945. I know I have seen cut out planes before, but don?t remember if they were made as fantasy/fakes or were an accepted jeweler variation? Any info on this badge or pilot cut outs in general.

Thanks,

Lee

[Ferg1]

Hi Lee, I have seen several of these badges in the past and never really been keen on them or believed in them. it purports to be a Maybauer piece but differs in certain features and appears to lack sharp detail. I do not like the pin and catch style either. Although it is quite plausible that an Austrian Jeweller/supplier may have produced Prussian/German badges post war it would not have swayed me to bid on it ! Ferg1.

[Lee Moore]

Thanks Ferg1. I was hopeful that you would comment on this one.

Lee

[Stogieman]

I think you have a modern, laser-cut copy. In all my years I have seen exactly one (1) picture of an actual cut-out badge in wear, yep. Thousands of images have floated through here. One (1) cut-out badge shown. I will search my archives for it.

[Steve K.]

I agree with Stogieman, this is a modern copy......some will be chemically aged...this one is not. The chemical aging makes them easier to detect.

Cut-outs were made as private purchase badges but are exceptionally rare!

[Ferg1]

Just for the records,here is a picture I ' pinched ' from a certain sale site of the same badge but not in cut-out form. Same rubbish different format ! Ferg1.

[Kris D]

Here's mine for comparison, by C E JUNCKER, BERLIN

[Lee Moore]

It is similar in that the aircraft is cut-out, but other than that it is a different badge (Bavarian two piece). I have not seen anything like it, not to mention all the personalization done to the back and with a PLM. I have serious doubts myself, but would like someone with more experience to comment. Has anyone seen a Carl Poellath made/marked like this? Here is the link: http://www.manions.com/bid/bid.aspx?itemid...mp;pic=20080826

Lee

[Mike Huxley]

It is similar in that the aircraft is cut-out, but other than that it is a different badge (Bavarian two piece). I have not seen anything like it, not to mention all the personalization done to the back and with a PLM. I have serious doubts myself, but would like someone with more experience to comment. Has anyone seen a Carl Poellath made/marked like this? Here is the link: http://www.manions.com/bid/bid.aspx?itemid...mp;pic=20080826

Lee

With all due respect Lee ... I wouldn't touch it with a 10' barge pole. If Manions is the seller steer clear. The pictures that are shown there just don't add up to a genuine piece. But sure ..if you like it ... go ahead and waste your money. I know as a serious collector I wouldn't fall for this.

Mike

[Lee Moore]

With all due respect Lee ... I wouldn't touch it with a 10' barge pole. If Manions is the seller steer clear. The pictures that are shown there just don't add up to a genuine piece. But sure ..if you like it ... go ahead and waste your money. I know as a serious collector I wouldn't fall for this.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Not sure what I said to make you think I liked it at all. Quite the contrary. Was just pointing out that it was not a similar badge than the one I originally posted and was wondering if anyone had seen others out there like the one in the link.

Lee

[Ferg1]

The badge on Manions site is what I term the ' empty or spokeless wheel ' type of Bavarian pilot badge. ( one wheel of the undercarriage is spokeless). Everytime ,or almost everytime a Bavarian pilot badge comes up for sale ,where ever, it is one of these. Given the small size of the Bavarian flying corp and the amount of these types of badges turning up it is implausible that they are 'good ' !! They appear in various different formats ,single stamped ,two piece , cut-out etc..... Look for a Bavarian pilot example with the correct spoked wheels you will be hard pressed to find one .With every 75 or so of the 'spokeless' ones there might be one (if lucky) of the real period ones. IMO some of these are ,at best, 1930's re-issue pieces but there are electroed fakes of these too. Beware !!!!!! Ferg1.

[VINLAND30]

My friend bought the badge from Manions the Oblt Fritz Ritter Von Roth a couple years ago there is a PLM engraved on the back it even has a Manions C.O.A with it signed by Manions I called them about it and they would not tell me anything about the sale nor could they find any records but the C.O.A. is the only record.My friend is sending it to me it will be here monday I will post photos of it.The recent grouping for $30.000 with the cased pilots badge with the PLM on the back disappeard after being on for a couple weeks and they have no info on that either when I called? My friend bought a PLM in the same auction as the cut out that says period 1918 jewlers example with C.O.A. again.You have got to see these. The photos I have now are too big to post even after I shrunk them I will have the badge monday and reshoot it.It is a cut out Bavarian named with a PLM on the back.I need some advice please.

smaller.bmp

[VINLAND30]

This very type of badge is part of a manions.com sale, with some other medals asking price $30,000 I think?

My friend bought the badge from Manions the Oblt Fritz Ritter Von Roth a couple years ago there is a PLM engraved on the back it even has a Manions C.O.A with it signed by Manions I called them about it and they would not tell me anything about the sale nor could they find any records but the C.O.A. is the only record.My friend is sending it to me it will be here monday I will post photos of it.The recent grouping for $30.000 with the cased pilots badge with the PLM on the back disappeard after being on for a couple weeks and they have no info on that either when I called? My friend bought a PLM in the same auction as the cut out that says period 1918 jewlers example with C.O.A. again.You have got to see these. The photos I have now are too big to post even after I shrunk them I will have the badge monday and reshoot it.It is a cut out Bavarian named with a PLM on the back.I need some advice please.

Attached File(s) smaller.bmp ( 62.4K ) Number of downloads: 3

[Ferg1]

Hi , looking forward to seeing this Barvarian badge ! Here are a couple of period examples in silver. Ferg1.

[Stogieman]

There's absolutely no way to determine anything from the tiny image posted. There's been several badges that have appeared over the years with a PLM (and other spurious) engraving(s) to the reverse. I have yet to see a single one that I would consider consistent with any period badge I have owned, inspected or fondled.

[nesredep]

I agree with Stogieman, this is a modern copy......some will be chemically aged...this one is not. The chemical aging makes them easier to detect.

Cut-outs were made as private purchase badges but are exceptionally rare!

Hello!

I agree.

All the best

Nesredep

[VINLAND30]

I know Manions has fallen off the rails and is not the dealership (more the used car category) it used to be -

so what is the consensus? was Manions selling a good or bad group.

I don't know if it was good or bad ? The group was taken away for some reason and they have no info on it? I am very curious about my friends Pilots Badge with the PLM engraved on the back and it being cut out and named.I will post photos monday.I hope some people have opinions then.

[VINLAND30]

There's absolutely no way to determine anything from the tiny image posted. There's been several badges that have appeared over the years with a PLM (and other spurious) engraving(s) to the reverse. I have yet to see a single one that I would consider consistent with any period badge I have owned, inspected or fondled.

I will post the photos monday for all to see I know the photo is too small the images are too big to shrink I will have the badge and reshoot it monday and post it.This is going to be very interesting and I can't wait to hear what every one thinks.Thank you

[VINLAND30]

Thanks Ferg1. I was hopeful that you would comment on this one.

Lee

Here is my friends badge that he bought from a reputable auction house it is very rare and they gave him a C.O.A. with it. It is cut out named and has a P.L.M. engraved on back. Some one said there were no cutouts well here is one named with the PLM. The word silber is stamped twice over on the back. I could not find any information on this piece so I am posting it here to see if anyone can tell me something about it?It is a very rare piece and I can't find any refernce to it?

[VINLAND30]

Here is my friends badge that he bought from a reputable auction house it is very rare and they gave him a C.O.A. with it. It is cut out named and has a P.L.M. engraved on back. Some one said there were no cutouts well here is one named with the PLM. The word silber is stamped twice over on the back. I could not find any information on this piece so I am posting it here to see if anyone can tell me something about it?It is a very rare piece and I can't find any refernce to it?

[VINLAND30]

There's absolutely no way to determine anything from the tiny image posted. There's been several badges that have appeared over the years with a PLM (and other spurious) engraving(s) to the reverse. I have yet to see a single one that I would consider consistent with any period badge I have owned, inspected or fondled.

What about this image here is one of the rare few it has a C.O.A. from a reputable auction house.

[VINLAND30]

I think you have a modern, laser-cut copy. In all my years I have seen exactly one (1) picture of an actual cut-out badge in wear, yep. Thousands of images have floated through here. One (1) cut-out badge shown. I will search my archives for it.

[VINLAND30]

Here is a real cut out not one person has dispute it to date here and it has a C.O.A.

[VINLAND30]

Here is a real period badge with a C.O.A.

[VINLAND30]

This appears hand filed no one disputes it either