Random Ramblings From Transcribing the WW1 Mecklenburg-Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War Rolls

[Guest Rick Research]

GOOD rolls have miraculously come to light and arrived today... but the first roughly half of the war lists the various classes and types solely by the recipients' names/units by consecutive roll numbers NOT award dates. Late in 1915/mid-1916 on they seem to have started adding in the vital dates.

So would appreciate ALL scans of award documents to either add missing dates to the rolls, or to confirm award roll dates.

There are awards listed as processed as late as 1926. :catjava:

[Ferg1]

Hi Rick, I know that this is not quite what you are looking for but I thought it would be of interest anyway and you will probably not see another one in a very ,long time ! Strelitz cross for distinction in war but with ' FUR TAPFERKEIT' reverse inscription.

Godet made piece in solid silver. 36 made ,25 issued to royalty and high rankers only. The detail is far finer than the 'TAPFER UND TREU' examples. Horribley rare ! Ferg1.

[Guest Rick Research]

That type of 2nd Class cross is ... around... in such large numbers that God alone knows. I sure don't. Have always surmised that most are 1920s pieces bought from the usual military jewellers by people who felt they were entitled to them.

There are just as many old and doubtless worn non-regulation 1st Classes around-- and THOSE in numbers far higher than were ever officially awarded, too.

The people who actually got one are a stunningly arbitrary assortment-- from the decrepit Ottoman Emperor (who never left his Palace, let alone heard the sound of guns, oy) to a capricious lot of generals who were neither the most senior nor the most celebrated of their fellows receiving the normal variety.

Unfortunately not a one of this type has an award date listed--only the Roman-numeral'd "Bekanntmachung" in which some of the awards were published--and THOSE aren't dated on the Rolls themselves.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least to discover that the Special Two Dozen Plus One ALSO got the ordinary type at some point. Since the MStMV2 rolls are in separate lists kept with varying detail simultaneously with each other, those are ALL going to require being done-- the work of some months of time-- and then the magic moment of Sort Alphabetically.

Done the 1st Classes, these 25, and will be done the "red" ribboned and women's awards this weekend.

Then it'll "just" be the laborious process of sorting out WHICH of 7 same last named same ranked officers got which one when and all that.

Looks to me, as I'm going along, that under 50% of the military ones have an actual award date, none of the "for Bravery" or red ribboned ones do, and 1 in 10 of the women's had an award date listed. But at least these rolls are COMPLETE with units/positions and most have complete names.

[Eric Stahlhut]

i'll get things started with this bar i posted a few months ago. seeheld very kindly identified it as belonging to a member of Grossherzoglisch Mecklenburgisches-Fuesilier Rgt. No. 90 Kaiser Wilhelm II.

[pinpon590]

Hello ! Here is mine :

[pinpon590]

And this one.

[Ferg1]

Hi Rick, you feel that there are many of these examples around?? (the FUR TAPFERKEIT ones ,that is). The one I have is the only one I have ever seen in all my collecting years. Plenty of the Tapfer und Treu types around but not this one. I would not have thought that anyone could just walk in to a military outfitters and claim an award ! If there are lots of them around maybe any of the members can show one.Ferg1.

[Christian J]

Hi Rick, I know that this is not quite what you are looking for but I thought it would be of interest anyway and you will probably not see another one in a very ,long time ! Strelitz cross for distinction in war but with ' FUR TAPFERKEIT' reverse inscription.

Godet made piece in solid silver. 36 made ,25 issued to royalty and high rankers only. The detail is far finer than the 'TAPFER UND TREU' examples. Horribley rare ! Ferg1.

A first one for me. Only read about it before.

As Hieronymussen writes, Ludendorff were the lowest ranking officer that were bestowed it, then the rest of them must have been some very senior officers.

[Roman Slivin]

http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=40496

[Guest Rick Research]

Retitling thread since no award documents have come up. Will try that again another time.

I've seen several dozen of the 2nd Classes "f?r Tapferkeit" come up over the decades and ALWAYS loose, never in mounted groups which would be attributable.

Same with 1st Classes, which are also far more READILY "available' than actual numbers awarded would indicate.

In both cases, these have been "around" far longer than the current market for fakery driven by prices, so I presume they are from PERIOD "dealer overstock" that has been dispersed over the long long years since.

Neither rank nor royal status were apparently the primary considerations for the Special 2nd Classes, since higher ranking and more Exalted persons did NOT get them. Indeed, among the fascinating things to be found in the Strelitz rolls are the "Comments" column notations on REJECTIONS--

including one of the Kaiser's sons, whose proposal for an ordinary 2nd class was turned down!

The "for Bravery" 2nds are thus rather randomly oddball awards given for no reasons which now remain discernable. (Were I an Exalted Personage, I'd have been FAR more "impressed" with another nice pin-back-y award than one that looked exactly like all the others unless somebody was close enough to read the inscription... )

I wish I knew exactly what standards WERE applied, since some of the 1st Class recipients were on their 3rd Vorschlag before being approved.

Will be about half done transcribing the ordinary 2nd Classes by Monday.

[Tom Y]

among the fascinating things to be found in the Strelitz rolls are the "Comments" column notations on REJECTIONS--

including one of the Kaiser's sons, whose proposal for an ordinary 2nd class was turned down!

That snotty little brat Rupprecht?

[Guest Rick Research]

Nah, not the Crown Prince of Bavaria... one of the Kaiser's sons. Can't find it now since there are multiple rolls and am typing my fingies to nubs (will cross 4,000 2nd Classes today) on the ones that were approved, not rejected.

[Eric Stahlhut]

...am typing my fingies to nubs (will cross 4,000 2nd Classes today) on the ones that were approved, not rejected.

good lord!

fueled by swiss rolls and chocolate pudding, i suspect?

'the one and only mr. L...'

full stop. :cheers:

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't smoke and I rarely drink, so Little Debbies'll do me.

I don't care if I never have to type Landsturmmann or Ersatz Reservist AGAIN and yet am only up to May 1917, sigh.

Interesting: "Robert," which barely exists in the ? 100,000 or so I've previously typed out, is a rather common given name in Strelitz! Likewise, the stereotypical "Schulz" in all its spellings rarely has appeared in other rolls, but Strelitz was thick with 'em. Lots of Maa?es, Benzins, Vo?es, Tiedts, B?lows (with and without vons) and many many strange names all ending in -kow.

There is only one "Leander Huth," but then one would be enough, wouldn't it? :catjava:

[Eric Stahlhut]

There is only one "Leander Huth," but then one would be enough, wouldn't it?

apparently there are more popping up around there like belated mushrooms, since on 3.12.2007 another leander h. won 5th place in a poker tournament somewhere nearby.

but for your rather extensive purposes, ok

[Guest Rick Research]

Gosh I hope it's not the SAME one!

SO FAR (all-- - but the last half of the 2nd Classes done) I have been able to add about 30 aviators who my late friend Neal O'Connor never found from the demented senile illiterate drunkard's roll fragments that were all he had to work with. (The Nice Roll is VERY nice.) Amazingly enough, ALL of them survived the war.

Maybe an MStMV2 was a Magic Lucky Charm.... :rolleyes:

[Guest Rick Research]

Slowing down now because I have to combine TWO rolls as I go BEFORE the magic moment comes to ALPHABETIZE and then sort through for duplications and adding data.

Here's about where I am at present, in the ordinary 2nd Class rolls:

The number down the left is running total from all the various Rolls, while the number at far right is each entry's line number on the major "C" Roll. Neither of those are of any importance to Our Valued Readers, but will be kept on MY computerized master copy so if anyone ever wants an image of someone's actual entry I will be able to FIND it again in thousands of entries on 5 different Rolls. What is complicating matters and slowing things down from this nice neat Final Product is that

the Good Roll contains recipients' full names (almost always) and their unit, but by this stage of the war NEVER contains the actual approval date of the award. The Demented Senile Drunkard's Roll contains entries with ONLY a last name, rank and in the case of entries on this sample page, their DIVISION.

So the first entry above reads

"Ahrendt, Heinrich Musketier II./ IR 187" on the GOOD Roll, while his entry reads

"Ahrendt, Musketier 187. ID 18.12.17" on the CRAZY Roll.

I am developing a permanent list to the left from leaning across massive scribbled ledgers squinting at double stacked heaps of hundreds of pages.

The GOOD Roll list things fairly straightforwardly in the order that they were awarded and processed BUT the CRAZY Roll lists things in the order that each Voschlag was received... so final disposition is very often MONTHS out of sequence. Someone nominated in November 1917 might have gotten their MStMV2 approved in December 1917... or March 1918... or have been told not this time, try again later (VERY common for 1st Classes) or... back might come indignant "WHO do you mean/you've already given him the 2nd Class twice!" correspondence.

The Research Gnomes bring order out of chaos...

but at what a ghastly personal price.... :catjava:

[Guest Rick Research]

OMIGAWD !!!!!! The Grand Duke offed himself in February, and everything just fell apart. The nice neat Good Roll (which has no 1918 dates ) continued as before, but Oh The Lunatic Roll!! In 1918, it dispensed with RANKS, so the entries are like "M?ller, Armee Oberkommando 17, 20.04.18." PERIOD. !!!

Here is a sample of the jumbled approvals way out of sequence. Some proposals had been around for months. As Delius's shows, apparently there was a minimum time required, and his was allowed as soon as that minimum was met.

The red remark is when I have all but abandoned hope of finding its approval date logged (once these are ALPHABETIZED, "proximity" will be lost). The ones with no dates I have not yet found in the Lunatic Roll... and if I can't, they'll end up with an "about" date entry too.

It is taking me as long to do 2 pages as 10 pages previously-- and I am ending up with only 50% dates for 1918 awards now. I can match up Good Roll entries with "normal" regiments to a Lunatic Roll division-only IF the pages are more or less in synch, or if there were several people from the same regiment to confirm a common origin. But "Kr?ger, GenKdo IX. RK" just does not help-- especially if ther are 5 of them with individual entries!

Lots and lots and LOTS of work.

When I finally finish and alphabetize, I'll have to go back through the Lunatic Roll RE-checking the re0checekd re-checked re-checekd scribbled pages. Hundreds and hundreds of 'em.