Early (pre-1858) awards for India

[Ed_Haynes]

While, technically, there could be one more medal listed here (the medal for the Second China War was also paid for out of East India Company revenues), the "Indian" component of the tale of early Indian awards ends here.

I hope it hasn't been too boring.

If you want "the rest of the story", see:

http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/OMSA05.pdf

(This was to have been presented as a seminar at this year's OMSA but got unprofessionally "cut" at the final moment. Color me unhappy, and much more.)

And, if you aren't bored entirely to tears, drop in over at: http://sagongs.ipbhost.com/

Edited October 29, 2005 by Ed_Haynes

[Chris Boonzaier]

Superb! Really superb this stuff !!!!!!!

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks, Chris!

[Guest Rick Research]

Not only great history but (gasp) beautiful design. It is a pleasure simply to LOOK at Vickie's Era gongs.

When you talk about looming research, as in the possible civilian--

does that involve physical ROLLS, or archival rooting about?

[Bob Hunter]

How rare is the Indian Mutiny Medal with the bar for the Defense of Lucknow? It is a marvelous piece!

[Ed_Haynes]

Rick: All sorts of research. Ranging from the narrow, roll- and archive-based digging on this individual and his service (though rolls for Indian civilians at Lucknow are fragmentary, in all senses of that word) to wider "academic" stuff. Some rolls are in London, some in Delhi, some eaten by white ants.

Bob: How rare is Mutiny for defence of Lucknow? Very. The official numbers suggest that, among the original defenders (which I suspect Sirdar Peeroo to have been), there were 1,538 soldiers and 160 civilians, though I suspect those numbers are heavily biased toward Europeans and ignore Indians. Yet, I cannot imagine that, in the heady revolutionary climate of June-November 1857 there were very many Indian civilians who chose to ally themselves with the discredited and crumbling goras -- it was hard enough for Indians in the army to remain "loyal" and would usually net them and eventuial Order of Merit. Maybe poor Peeroo just got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, maybe there is another tale to tell. That, of course, is the interest in these things, not just chunks of silver and silk with a big price tag, but all that survives of a man and a moment. This, of course, is why we collect and study these silly things.

And thanks for the visits and the comments. I know this is pretty exotic stuff for most of the bruderschaft here, but . . . ?

Edited October 29, 2005 by Ed_Haynes

[Guest Rick Research]

The Design Boards for more than one MoD should be beaten with these, several times a day, until they see reason again. There is NO excuse why those who find themselves in similar situations today should not have, at the literally least, similar quality tokens of appreciation from their grateful peoples. Let us not have to "Boulton" again because our governments--so profligate in all other areas-- low-bidder on medals to all our troops.

That which CAN be seen, can be appreciated. I actually had a Relief of Lucknow barred Mutiny Medal pass through my paws from one friend to another several years back and pehaps the current owner who lurks about might either post the scans I made at that time or PM me that it would be OK for me to do so at what would be my ONLY contribution here. I was overwhelmed by the simple aesthetic appeal of it.

These medals are ART.

[Tony Farrell]

Ed, it's always a pleasure to gawp at these trinkets. Speechless with awe. I am not worthy.

[Bob Hunter]

Ed, a really interesting thread with some rare and unique awards. Thanks for the contribution.

[jan faas]

Ed,

Magnificent (as always)!

But how about the Medal for the Battle of Plassey (1757) and Medal for the Taking of Pondicherry (1761) ?

They are HEIC medals too I believe.

As there are no pictures of the The Ceylon Medal (1818) , can you please describe the medal.

Thanks,

Jan

Edited November 21, 2005 by jan faas

[Ed_Haynes]

The Plassey and Pondicherry medals were issued only as table medals and I have no evidence that they were ever mounted for wearing. I can dig up images for them.

I thought I had am image of the Ceylon Medal, but could not find it when I did the initial posting. Let me look again.

[jan faas]

Ed,

Checked the old shoebox yet?

A link wil do nicely too.

At http://www.britishmedalforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4041 the owner of a tin Seringapatam medal stated that this medal was originally a table medal (not wearable) and only allowed to wear after 1815 to British soldiers.

Is this true, and does this also count for Indian soldiers?

Regards,

Jan

Edited November 30, 2005 by jan faas

[Ed_Haynes]

The statement on that British Medals Forum is wrong as far as Indians are concerned. From the outset, the Seringapatam Medal was wearable, as the earlier (Deccan, Mysore) medals had been.

So much of what is "knowledge" on medals is based on what the natives (of the British Isles did and thought and wore) and ignores what was done by Indians. And there is so much reluctance to learn anything else. That's one reason why I am no longer a part of that other forum.

[Ulsterman]

I just saw this thread! Ed I am stunned. That Lucknow is great!! Certainly worthy of an article (hint hint) once you have researched it.

But for my money the First Seikh war gongs are the best. Having read about the battles those were as hard won as the Waterloo medal. Casualties for british imperial regiments were what-50-60%?

[Guest Darrell]

A question was raised on another thread regarding early Indian campaign medals. The initual query may not have realised what it was about to unleash.

[Guest Rick Research]

Not TO an Indian, but here's the Relief of Lucknow medal I had previously mentioned, scanned when it was briefly in my paws, with permission of the owner--

[attachmentid=17724][attachmentid=17723]

To C. Richardson of the 42nd Royal Highlanders

[attachmentid=17725]

[attachmentid=17726]

[Guest Rick Research]

And a couple more closeups from the Time When Good Design MEANT Something:

[attachmentid=17727]

[attachmentid=17728]

That exhausts what I can contribute to these excellent postings! (Wyon's lion's expression is delightful!)

[notned]

Ed,

Found a 1854 IGS the other day.

Named to

Sepoy Jeeba Singh Mily Police Bn Pyinmana

With Burma 1887-89 Clasp

IS this a rarity?

And can you help with a approximate worth please?

Kind regards

Paul

PS; just bought my latest 1854 IGS..to a 1015 Cpl C Stuart Royal Scots Fusiliers

[Ed_Haynes]

As I had not had a specimen, I had been unable to show the medal for the capture of Rodriguez, the Isle of Bourbon (Mauritius), and the Isle of France (Reunion) between July 1809 and December 1810. Not only an original striking, but nicely and lovingly worn.

[Hugh]

Thanks for all this, Ed, especially the earlier medals. It's the first I had seen of the first 2 - 3. Very helpful.

[MCMH]

Edji, you have not quoted the source of the photo, or your information. I'm reaching for the phone, what is your Lawyer's number

I would be happy to share the doubts with the list, but if anyone has any questions I'll only direct you to the Grand Master of the Lodge in Germany (yes the Maisons - conspiracy theorists would love this) who produced the medal. It is apparently very rare, but not sadly the medal Mayo's friends purported it to be.

[Ulsterman]

Ok:

You lost me on that last post.

List?

Masons?

Which medal?

[Ed_Haynes]

I, too, am very

[MCMH]

No problem Edji.

I was refering to the Monghyr Medal, 1766.

There was a medal produced by the Mint in Calcutta, along with Pondercherry &co, however in the 1870s the dies for it, and the other two medals that the Mint had produced prior to the Deccan Medal, were unaccounted for.

The Monghyr Medal displayed by Ed was aquired by me, for an undisclosed sum from a very well known auction house owner. There are only three known examples in private collections, although one of these has disappeared, believed stolen. I have every one of the early HEIC medals, all are first strikings, and as soon as I had it in my hands I knew it wasn't right.

I had been talking about HEIC medals with John Hayward whilst he was preparing Battles & medals. He said he had seen two of these medals when he had been with Spinks in the 60s (the medal that disappeared was almost certainly one of these), and like me, based on the construction and production of the medal (poor finishing, tool marks, very light and struck on a very thin flan) he had had grave doubts about the medal.

I again went through the records of the Indian Mint books to see if there was a description, but could find none, and then I had a brain wave and did something that Mayo couldn't do - I googled (see footnote) the latin inscription 'Non Nisi Digo'. Sure enough, amonst several hundred returns, was a website for the Masonic Lodge, "The Lodge of the Palmen".

http://www.minerva-zu-den-drei-palmen.de/index.php

Their logo, you will note, is the same as the design of the medal Mayo thought was the Monghyr Medal. The Grand Master of the Lodge is a direct descendent of the founder, and the society was founded in 1776 by the amalgamation of three other lodges (hence the palmtrees, and name of the lodge). The design of the lodge's logo dates to 1776 and is full of masonic meaning. Shortly after it's formation the founding members had a medal struck to commemorate the creation of the lodge (the in thing at the time, why do very few society's have medals oday?), and less than 30 original medals are known to exist.

The Grand Master told me that they commanded very high prices amongst members, but my heart sank when he told me in a hushed reverenced tone that 'it is worth many hundreds of Euros mein herr'. I'd just managed to knock two naughts off of what I had paid for it!!

And before you ask, the Grand Master knows a lot about their medals but could tell me nothing of the grail !

Rgds,

MCMH

1 - I use the vanacular. Google was no help, and I found the site using Yahoo).

(information and photo MCMH's copyright )

[MCMH]

Their logo, you will note, is the same as the design of the medal Mayo thought was the Monghyr Medal. The Grand Master of the Lodge is a direct descendent of the founder, and the society was founded in 1776 by the amalgamation of three other lodges (hence the palmtrees, and name of the lodge). The design of the lodge's logo dates to 1776 and is full of masonic meaning.

Note: These dates should read 1766. 1776 was a white mutiny but occured on another continent.